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After last night's fiasco is it time to declare VAR a failure and bin it at the end of this season? Teams score what look perfectly good goals in real time and fans celebrate but then comes the bitter disappointment of having the goal wiped out by the dreaded VAR. Often the decisions are given on such hairline decisions and based on a part of the body being millimetres offside. This is killing the game and surely not what most of us expected from VAR. I'm sure most fans would rather go back to the old days of blaming the referee or his assistant for decisions we think went against us and having a healthy debate on it afterwards. Even with a VAR decision nothing is cut and dried so what point does it serve? We are now left debating VAR decisions rather than an officials interpretation in real time and still nothing is conclusive. Also referees often bottle penalty decisions and would rather give nothing and let VAR decide. This is not in the spirit of the game. Maybe others think that overall VAR does a good job but I believe it has proved a complete failure.

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I think VAR is an okish idea...but you need people running it who have a clue what they are doing.

In my opinion VAR should be used for clear yes or no decisions. It's getting involved in borderline decisions that could go either way depending on the judgement of the official running it, and that's not fair - that's not what VAR needs to be used for.

I will say though, VAR didn't take those goals away from us yesterday - the on field decision was never overturned, so even without VAR we still wouldn't have had those marginal decisions.

Overall, it's a decent idea, but it's being implemented very poorly in this country by a bunch of stuck up official who believe they are always right, even when they're not.

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The problem is that VAR has turned offside into a binary choice, you're either onside or you're not. The previous situation of the attacker getting the benefit of the doubt has gone completely. The way it's going we'll be using electron microscopes to see if the attacker is a nano meter in front of the line!

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It's not even VAR though, it's the fiddling with rules that ruins everything.

It's clear that it was decided at some point to start awarding fewer penalties. You can't just change the rules or interpretation midway through a season and it has resulted in decisions seeming arbitrary.

Then there are the laws and interpretations themselves.

If it was correct not to award the penalty last night simply because of a completely irrelevant skim of ball on short then that needs to be changed at season end. The law needs to consider whether the deflection rendered the handball non-advantageous or not, as well as the position of the arm and the distance between player and last play of the ball. Clearly the deflection last night had no material impact on the shot heading towards the goal and it was the arm, outstretched, that stopped the shot. VAR didn't make a difference because Mason, laughably, was gesturing that the ball had hit Cash's chest / stomach so wouldn't have given it anyway.

Then you have the bizarre new "sleeve" part of the handball rule. What's wrong with simply saying handball is anywhere on the arm below 90 degrees from the top of the shoulder? Why bring clothes into it? It's fecking bizarre. 

If offside is to be judged to the millimetre then they need to look at the best way to do so. To mind that is by looking at the feet. You'll still have hairline decisions but the feet show relative position much better than someone's forehead or sleeve.

 

 

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It' not VAR, its the fact you have Refs running it interpreting things, like drawing arbitrary lines on the pitch for offsides and choosing frames when the ball is played, that is the problem.

As far as I can see basically you have Ref's making mistakes and other refs desperate not to show them up. Those two incidents last night were first and foremost poor ON FIELD decisions, he should have been giving a penalty for that because even with like multiple replays the touch on his thigh was not clear cut, so the on field ref should have been giving that as it was a clear handball blocking a shot with the arm moving into the path of the ball. But because he failed at his job, VAR, as in the other ref operating it, then desperately looked for something to back up his bad decision.  

Had he given that as a pen, as he should have, there is NO WAY they would have overturned it. 

Same with the offside, the lino mucked up, there is no way from his angle he is seeing a sleeve offside and he's mucked up, so again they fall over themselves to confirm a bad decision, so the lines get drawn with the benefit going to it being offside, and the frame chosen is the one AFTER the ball has left the foot as you can clearly see in the screenshot, so that then enables them to very very marginally support their colleagues muck up. 

That is the problem, its a refs union, they won't over turn their own mistakes and won't highlight muck ups most of the time. 

The principal of VAR is fine, it should be there for fixing glaring errors, like that handball, that is a glaring error by the ref, there is no way the ref saw a deflection of his thigh because multiple Sky cameras and 3 people in the studio couldn't see it. So should have been giving a penalty and VAR should have said, no you made a mistake go look at it again or give a pen, but they don't. 

The offside thing again, they can't do this like the ball crossing the line. The ball crossing the line is done by machines and is very accurate down to the cm, but they are trying to apply the same principle to offsides when there are many moving parts and it can't be done, the person is drawing the lines on, so there has to be some common sense applied.

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31 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think VAR is an okish idea...but you need people running it who have a clue what they are doing.

In my opinion VAR should be used for clear yes or no decisions. It's getting involved in borderline decisions that could go either way depending on the judgement of the official running it, and that's not fair - that's not what VAR needs to be used for.

I will say though, VAR didn't take those goals away from us yesterday - the on field decision was never overturned, so even without VAR we still wouldn't have had those marginal decisions.

Overall, it's a decent idea, but it's being implemented very poorly in this country by a bunch of stuck up official who believe they are always right, even when they're not.

No, it wasn’t overturned, but the on field decision was affected by the presence of VAR.

I hate it and if it’s not working in this format then it’s never going to work.

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2 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

Am I right in thinking that if VAR didn’t exist we wouldn’t have got those decisions anyway? The handball wasn’t blown by the ref and the lino flagged Ings’ goal for offside. 

Correct. The problem is the officials and the rules, not the technology. I've always said for offsides, there should be a 6 inch margin for error, or they use thick lines and there has to be clear daylight between them, or you just go by foot position. Right now we're in a daft position where you'd want you GK to be the captain because anyone else could be playing themselves offside, or an attacker onside, with their armband.

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9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Correct. The problem is the officials and the rules, not the technology. 

So the Lino got the offside spot on, and as the rules are drafted, so did the ref, but you’re saying theyre part of the problem? What do you want them to do, make their own rules up. 

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It's never a good idea to make judgements when tempers are flaring and blood is boiling.

VAR is not the problem in itself. It is the understanding, the interpretation and the application of poorly defined rules - for handball, offside etc - that lie at the heart of the matter. Humans are involved in that process and match officials face the same dilemmas as we would in their position. If the rules are not crystal clear for every conceivable situation that might arise then you have a potential problem.

Nobody challenges or debates goal line technology. It works because the rules are clear and the technology is programmed to make the decision for us.

 

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Like others have stated, in principle VAR is a decent idea. However, the bias toward the big six still continues and whilst the standard of Premier League officials continues to decline then it will not work. How many decent officials do we think there are in the Premier League? Despite the League Cup Final I always thought Andre Marriner was ok, maybe also Craig Pawson. Michael Oliver seems non fussy, however I can't remember the last time he was in charge of one of our games. Graham Scott maybe too. However there are too many officials just not good enough or just nit brave enough to make decisions.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So the Lino got the offside spot on, and as the rules are drafted, so did the ref, but you’re saying theyre part of the problem? What do you want them to do, make their own rules up. 

If last night's interpretation of the handball rule is correct I'm gobsmacked. I know if a ball deflects off a leg at some random, obtuse angle it shouldn't be given as handball but that's not what happened there. That was proper LBW, hot spot confirms a nick off the inside of the bat, third umpire stuff.

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I have no problem with the idea of VAR but, in my opinion, it needs to be used quickly and efficiently to overturn obviously wrong decisions that cost teams goals (i.e. to help support the Premier League as an entertaining thing to watch).

My basic rule is if you watch something back at slow speed once (or simply see a freeze frame) and it’s obvious the decision was wrong then overturn it.

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Maybe they were going with the Refs decision ie deflection on to hand therefore no pen , rather than was it going in the goal.

VAR needs a review , not changes on the hoof.

A few years ago a Uni did a study on fouls and concluded that if a player put his arms down to break his fall to the floor it was probably a foul BUT if they threw their arms up as they went down it probably wasn't. I think more studies should be done , look at Grealish when he hits the deck , both his legs are straight out behind him showing he has held his lead leg back or Salah who colapses like a sack of spuds at the slightest touch etc . Factor that into the VAR and decide on what and when it is used for.

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I agreed with VAR when it was introduced but it’s been over complicated! Surely football means football, so why isn’t it feet that are the things that are deemed offside??? It’s so simple, if there is a gap between the attackers feet and the defenders feet when the ball is played then blow for offside! If there is no daylight or the body,head or god forbid arm are ahead of the defender then it’s a goal, can you imagine a full length diving  header at the far post being ruled out if the player is horizontal yet his feet are way behind the last defender? If the feet are onside then surely the goal should stand? Only problem now is size of feet could come into play 🤦🏻‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Maggie May said:

Am I right in thinking that if VAR didn’t exist we wouldn’t have got those decisions anyway? 

Depends if you assume the officials would have made the same on-the-spot decisions if VAR didn't exist. i.e. we don't know how much referee/lino decisions are influenced (subconsciously or otherwise) when they know VAR is available. For example, with the handball, the ref might well have blown for the penalty (given it was an obvious handball to the human eye in real time) rather than having the luxury to think: "hmm, I think that's handball but let's leave it to VAR rather than point to the spot")

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I agree it was a nailed on penalty and arguably a straight red for preventing a goal.

VAR is fundamentally flawed for close offside decisions due to the limitations of the technology. The resolution of the picture makes it difficult to determine exactly when the ball leaves the foot. Playing of the ball will always always fall between two frames, which I assume are at 60Hz. That means there is a margin of error depending upon the speed of the ball, the players involved and of their arms and legs. Even with a 20 mph closing speed there is an average error of 3 inches, but we are likely to see much higher speeds in many situations.  Therefore, when the lines are close, as they were last night, it is impossible to draw lines accurately, even it they were aligned accurately with the players and the closest frame was chosen. What we end up with is something completely arbitrary in its decision making and not fit for purpose.

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Last night the problem was Lee Mason, Mike Dean and a linesman who, for some reason, was flagging for offside at every opportunity, which is not common these days, as they generally wait for that phase of play to end before then flagging - or not. As someone alluded to earlier, it was an officials union, trying to justify decisions made on the pitch.

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31 minutes ago, Granite_City_Saint said:

I agree it was a nailed on penalty and arguably a straight red for preventing a goal.

VAR is fundamentally flawed for close offside decisions due to the limitations of the technology. The resolution of the picture makes it difficult to determine exactly when the ball leaves the foot. Playing of the ball will always always fall between two frames, which I assume are at 60Hz. That means there is a margin of error depending upon the speed of the ball, the players involved and of their arms and legs. Even with a 20 mph closing speed there is an average error of 3 inches, but we are likely to see much higher speeds in many situations.  Therefore, when the lines are close, as they were last night, it is impossible to draw lines accurately, even it they were aligned accurately with the players and the closest frame was chosen. What we end up with is something completely arbitrary in its decision making and not fit for purpose.

Even worse than that. It’s 50Hz in the UK, or 50 frames per second. I used to be in TV research forty years but technology has changed since then. It’s all CCD cameras these days so unless they are high speed versions they are too slow for offside decisions.

And when is the ball deemed to have been kicked? When the foot first touches it or once it has obviously left the boot?

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The offside decision was so tight on VAR and it looked to me as though Mr Dean moved the line when it was level with the defenders backside, just a fraction to cover it which made Danny offside. The linesmen are instructed to keep the flag down if they are not sure and there were numerous other occasions where someone was yards offside and he did not raise it. Adding that to an obvious hand movement by Cash to save a goal where numerous experts cannot agree whether it touched the thigh or not Mason must surely give it and then check VAR? What happens if the ball bounces off the defenders thigh and he punches it away the rule is so flawed it was a deliberate hand to ball movement and in my opinion a penalty and red card. I feel totally cheated by the usual inept bunch of officials who never seem to give us the decisions to “balance them out over the season”.

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2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No, it wasn’t overturned, but the on field decision was affected by the presence of VAR.

I hate it and if it’s not working in this format then it’s never going to work.

I agree, i think if they carry on with this more fans will gradually lose interest in the Premier league. It's complete nonsense drawing these lines across a pitch when they select a freeze frame that doesn't necessarily match the time the pass is made. The sky analysis "Did the ball skim his shorts before hitting his hand" , what the fck has happened to the game? Lucky for them fans are not in the ground to make their feelings heard. 

Maybe Saints playing in the championship away from this farce wouldn't be such a bad thing. 

Interesting PaddyPwer refunded all bets on a Saints win or draw, acknowledging the injustice.

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Nope. I think it’s just a simple equation of it being used in the way we all thought it was going to be used in the first place. A bit of competence and common sense thrown in wouldn’t go amiss either. 
 

I think one of the big issues (in addition to the lack of competence) is that rules and interpretation keep changing, seemingly on a whim in response to someone kicking up a stink about a decision that didn’t go their way. Wasn’t it always previously the case that rules and regulations changed during close season and officials along with clubs got the time to get their heads around the changes?

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The whole referring structure needs a complete overhaul. Ditching VAR doesn't solve so many of the problems and in a year we will be begging for it back. And then wanting it removed. 

At the Premier League level Mike Reilly needs to go immediately. He was an appalling referee himself and has overseen a shocking period of refereeing. How Lee Mason is allowed to referee at the top level year in year out is just mind blowing. Yes, they need to be able to protect themselves a bit otherwise we would have no competent refs left if there was a witch hunt after every mistake. But rewarding buffoons like him sends out the wrong signal. I get the talent pool is tiny and shrinking every year. But come on, give someone else a chance. Some of these refs, particularly Mason, will never, ever be good enough, in the same way Long was never gonna be a 20 goal a year striker. 

Then there is all the tinkering of rules during the season which to me is a sackable offence to whichever suit (or it might be Reilly again) is coming up with that. That shit needs to be sorted clearly in pre-season and clearly communicated. There have been about 3-4 completely different handball interpretations in half a season. That's appalling. 

At the grassroots level we need to do so much more to keep young talent. It is never okay to abuse a referee at grassroots and we need to send out a strong signal which again begins with the top. I've seen parents hurling abuse from the touchlines at an under 12s division 4 game! That is not okay. Refs are allowed to make mistakes. You don't yell at a 12 year old kid for missing a one on one, why is it okay to yell at a young ref for missing a foul? All it does is mean those talented refs give it up. And we are left with ego-maniac power trippers, or incompetent refs who are too dumb to even realise they are been abused and making mistakes. It is ridiculous how much protection refs at the top level are given, yet those at the bottom are left to fend for themselves. We need to take a leaf out of rugbys book and stop players crowding the ref. 

The issues with refereeing as seriously deep rooted, keeping or getting rid of VAR doesn't really solve anything. 

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37 minutes ago, csh398 said:

Nope. I think it’s just a simple equation of it being used in the way we all thought it was going to be used in the first place. A bit of competence and common sense thrown in wouldn’t go amiss either. 
 

I think one of the big issues (in addition to the lack of competence) is that rules and interpretation keep changing, seemingly on a whim in response to someone kicking up a stink about a decision that didn’t go their way. Wasn’t it always previously the case that rules and regulations changed during close season and officials along with clubs got the time to get their heads around the changes?

Yes, during the close season all the referees get together at St. George’s Park for a big seminar and they go through all the law changes and their interpretations. This information is then promulgated to the clubs.

Edit: I don’t like Mike Reilly either. I was at the first top game he refereed at Leicester against Saints. He spent the whole game trying to impress his seniors and awarded a penalty against MLT who was only trying to protect his face from a ball blasted at him from close range.

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3 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

The whole referring structure needs a complete overhaul. Ditching VAR doesn't solve so many of the problems and in a year we will be begging for it back. And then wanting it removed. 

At the Premier League level Mike Reilly needs to go immediately. He was an appalling referee himself and has overseen a shocking period of refereeing. How Lee Mason is allowed to referee at the top level year in year out is just mind blowing. Yes, they need to be able to protect themselves a bit otherwise we would have no competent refs left if there was a witch hunt after every mistake. But rewarding buffoons like him sends out the wrong signal. I get the talent pool is tiny and shrinking every year. But come on, give someone else a chance. Some of these refs, particularly Mason, will never, ever be good enough, in the same way Long was never gonna be a 20 goal a year striker. 

Then there is all the tinkering of rules during the season which to me is a sackable offence to whichever suit (or it might be Reilly again) is coming up with that. That shit needs to be sorted clearly in pre-season and clearly communicated. There have been about 3-4 completely different handball interpretations in half a season. That's appalling. 

At the grassroots level we need to do so much more to keep young talent. It is never okay to abuse a referee at grassroots and we need to send out a strong signal which again begins with the top. I've seen parents hurling abuse from the touchlines at an under 12s division 4 game! That is not okay. Refs are allowed to make mistakes. You don't yell at a 12 year old kid for missing a one on one, why is it okay to yell at a young ref for missing a foul? All it does is mean those talented refs give it up. And we are left with ego-maniac power trippers, or incompetent refs who are too dumb to even realise they are been abused and making mistakes. It is ridiculous how much protection refs at the top level are given, yet those at the bottom are left to fend for themselves. We need to take a leaf out of rugbys book and stop players crowding the ref. 

The issues with refereeing as seriously deep rooted, keeping or getting rid of VAR doesn't really solve anything. 

Well said. Like you I used to be a local referee and some of the parents seem to think it’s all part of the fun to hurl abuse at referees. I challenged one young mum about it once and she just said “It’s all part of having a laugh”.

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3 hours ago, Maggie May said:

Am I right in thinking that if VAR didn’t exist we wouldn’t have got those decisions anyway? The handball wasn’t blown by the ref and the lino flagged Ings’ goal for offside. 

My impression at the time was that Mason signalled the ball had hit the players chest, so he wasn’t minded to give the decision.  If he had given the decision for a penalty, I doubt it would have been overturned by VAR given the evidence we saw, as there was no clear and obvious mistake.

The off side declsion was a bit like the Bamford decision.  The players body is onside except for the arm pointing to where the player wanted the ball played.  I would have thought that type of “action” will be clarified as the player is not looking to gain an advantage.  In last nights case, I think that even if the assistant did not flag, the “goal” would still have been ruled out under review.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, positivepete said:

My impression at the time was that Mason signalled the ball had hit the players chest, so he wasn’t minded to give the decision.  If he had given the decision for a penalty, I doubt it would have been overturned by VAR given the evidence we saw, as there was no clear and obvious mistake.

The office declsion was a bit like the Bamford decision.  The players body onside except for the arm pointing to where the player wanted the ball played.  I would have thought that type of “action” will be clarified as the player is not looking to gain an advantage.  In last nights case, I think that even if the assistant did not flag, the “goal” would still have been ruled out under review.

 

 

You’re right. Whilst VAR is shite we wouldn’t have got either decision if it wasn’t there anyway. Mason didn’t give the pen and the linesman gave Ings offside. How Mason can miss the hand ball is baffling, how the linesman can he 100% to stick his flag straight up is incredible. But then there were quite a few decisions like that during the game, all of which went villas way. 

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Clear obvious errors. CLEAR OBVIOUS ERRORS. That's what it was for and the two I always think of is Docoure handball equaliser for Watford in Pellegrino season (sorry for bringing that clown up) and Gabbiadini cup final off side. They were fucking obvious and were definitely errors. Now, you move on to last night's match. The hand ball was definitely handball, but was it clear and obvious to the same extent as the Docoure sneakily extended arm leading to palming ball into goal one - not really. Was the Ings offside as clear and obvious as the Gabbi one. Definitely not.  But where do you 'draw the line' ?  At what point does an error become a clear and obvious one that should be reviewed? Once you've got it you get drawn in and everything needs reviewing.

When you think about it replays, lines drawn over the screen, refs beckoned to the touchline to view it themselves and all that shit shouldn't even enter into the equation - it's either so stunningly obvious that it is a mistake that the ref get's an instant word in his ear saying he's fucked up, made a stone cold obvious irrefutable mistake that has to be reversed or it's not and he doesn't get that call.   

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But it shouldn't be just a clear and obvious mistake, it needs to be correct decision,  just like goal line technology. The offside cannot ever be 'correct' decision as they haven't a definitive line of body to relate to, edge of sleeve is not definitove due to sleeve lengths/armbands etc. My team all forwards would have shorter sleeves, simple.  The only way is tip of the boot, nothing else. Also frame rates would have to be addressed.  The handball rule is fine but again its down to interpretation,  a deflection off a body part is fine as long as the ball has its course deviated onto the hand, this wasn't the case with ours and common sense and understanding of the game would of seen this, will you've still got the 'old boys club' amongst refs and fa this won't change, they will keep making new rules to cover defect of last rule,  1st time last night I was that angry in a long time 

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JWP looked really pissed off with how the game panned out yesterday, but I hope he holds his tongue. I imagine Mike Dean would relish sending him off on Tuesday evening. He's not just a dreadful ref, he has pompous arrogance as well. Bet most of the players really dislike him. 

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22 hours ago, tajjuk said:

It' not VAR, its the fact you have Refs running it interpreting things, like drawing arbitrary lines on the pitch for offsides and choosing frames when the ball is played, that is the problem.

As far as I can see basically you have Ref's making mistakes and other refs desperate not to show them up. Those two incidents last night were first and foremost poor ON FIELD decisions, he should have been giving a penalty for that because even with like multiple replays the touch on his thigh was not clear cut, so the on field ref should have been giving that as it was a clear handball blocking a shot with the arm moving into the path of the ball. But because he failed at his job, VAR, as in the other ref operating it, then desperately looked for something to back up his bad decision.  

Had he given that as a pen, as he should have, there is NO WAY they would have overturned it. 

Same with the offside, the lino mucked up, there is no way from his angle he is seeing a sleeve offside and he's mucked up, so again they fall over themselves to confirm a bad decision, so the lines get drawn with the benefit going to it being offside, and the frame chosen is the one AFTER the ball has left the foot as you can clearly see in the screenshot, so that then enables them to very very marginally support their colleagues muck up. 

That is the problem, its a refs union, they won't over turn their own mistakes and won't highlight muck ups most of the time. 

The principal of VAR is fine, it should be there for fixing glaring errors, like that handball, that is a glaring error by the ref, there is no way the ref saw a deflection of his thigh because multiple Sky cameras and 3 people in the studio couldn't see it. So should have been giving a penalty and VAR should have said, no you made a mistake go look at it again or give a pen, but they don't. 

The offside thing again, they can't do this like the ball crossing the line. The ball crossing the line is done by machines and is very accurate down to the cm, but they are trying to apply the same principle to offsides when there are many moving parts and it can't be done, the person is drawing the lines on, so there has to be some common sense applied.

Excellent post, well said 🤙

Clearly referees are determined to protect their colleagues even if it means hairline technicalities have precedence over common sense and fairness !

Having watched the match live on Sky and also MOTD later, it was clear that all of the ex professional players (the likes of Carragher, Ian Wright etc..) viewed these decisions as a miscarriage of justice !

Perhaps the authorities should consider that the VAR panel could include (or even consist of) ex players ?

Obviously you would have to be aware of any potential 'conflict of interest' by adjudicating on former clubs, rivals etc.. but I feel that it would bring more balance to the situation and lend less bias towards the protection of ref colleagues !

Bottom line is that Saturday was not only a shit day for Saints, it was also a shit day for football in general !

 

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All VAR does is shift the argument from the ref to a faceless individual in a truck. I despise the way it breaks up the game and sucks the joy out of goal scoring. When fans were last in, chants of: “This isn’t football anymore,” were commonplace. It might sound naive to expect this, but why weren’t fans ever consulted on VAR? I just don’t think it’s improved football at all. I want a game of passion, not one where technology takes precedence. Give us back the ref on the pitch as final arbiter - yes some mistakes - but at least they’d be making decisions as humans and not ruled by machines.

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29 minutes ago, bertie said:

All VAR does is shift the argument from the ref to a faceless individual in a truck. I despise the way it breaks up the game and sucks the joy out of goal scoring. When fans were last in, chants of: “This isn’t football anymore,” were commonplace. It might sound naive to expect this, but why weren’t fans ever consulted on VAR? I just don’t think it’s improved football at all. I want a game of passion, not one where technology takes precedence. Give us back the ref on the pitch as final arbiter - yes some mistakes - but at least they’d be making decisions as humans and not ruled by machines.

I’m with Bertie.

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On 31/01/2021 at 13:01, Whitey Grandad said:

Even worse than that. It’s 50Hz in the UK, or 50 frames per second. I used to be in TV research forty years but technology has changed since then. It’s all CCD cameras these days so unless they are high speed versions they are too slow for offside decisions.

And when is the ball deemed to have been kicked? When the foot first touches it or once it has obviously left the boot?

That’s the main issue for me, drawing those lines in minute detail is pointless when you are relying on someone pausing the video at exactly the right millisecond. The VAR ref should draw a big fat line from the last part of the defender allowing for margin of error.

All the other issues should be resolved over time, what happened against Villa was the fault of the people using VAR not VAR itself. It doesn’t matter what system you use if the people involved are idiots.

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1 minute ago, aintforever said:

That’s the main issue for me, drawing those lines in minute detail is pointless when you are relying on someone pausing the video at exactly the right millisecond. The VAR ref should draw a big fat line from the last part of the defender allowing for margin of error.

All the other issues should be resolved over time, what happened against Villa was the fault of the people using VAR not VAR itself. It doesn’t matter what system you use if the people involved are idiots.

Or incompetent or corrupt

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9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

That’s the main issue for me, drawing those lines in minute detail is pointless when you are relying on someone pausing the video at exactly the right millisecond. The VAR ref should draw a big fat line from the last part of the defender allowing for margin of error.

All the other issues should be resolved over time, what happened against Villa was the fault of the people using VAR not VAR itself. It doesn’t matter what system you use if the people involved are idiots.

I believe it was Arsène Wenger’s suggestion that they should use wider lines to allow a margin of error but it was turned down by IFAB. 

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If you consider other sports where VAR works, such as rugby, cricket, even american football it is no longer a talking point. This is because the referees are much better respected by the participants, and the rules are more clearly defined. I agree that VAR is not the problem - the rules clearly are. Common sense would suggest that only the line of the feet should be used, and the frame deciding when the ball was kicked should be the first frame that shows the foot in contact with the ball, not after it has left. Simple. Handball will always be contentious though. If intent has to be shown the decision will always be subjective.

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3 hours ago, Captain Jack said:

If you consider other sports where VAR works, such as rugby, cricket, even american football it is no longer a talking point. This is because the referees are much better respected by the participants, and the rules are more clearly defined. I agree that VAR is not the problem - the rules clearly are. Common sense would suggest that only the line of the feet should be used, and the frame deciding when the ball was kicked should be the first frame that shows the foot in contact with the ball, not after it has left. Simple. Handball will always be contentious though. If intent has to be shown the decision will always be subjective.

I agree with all of that. 

Hand ball and offside are clearly the most contentious rules.  Hand ball suffers from constant tinkering with the rule and the consequent confusion over implementation and interpretation.   Offside (which should be simple because it's a matter of fact rather than opinion) suffers from the potential margin for error both in terms of the point the frame is frozen and the drawing of the lines.  It would benefit from a margin of error allowance in the decision (like they use for LBW in cricket) as suggested above.

The other difference with both cricket and rugby (I don't know about American Football) is that the decision making process is transparent.  The umpires/referees are 'miked up' so that you can hear the discussion and it is shown on the big screens so that everyone can see what is being discussed.  If football could do the same, so that the thought process and logic were understood I think that would help.

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Manchester United have received a report on their match against Sheffield United recently. There were 2 contentious decisions in that game which this report confirms were both wrong. I am no Man U fan but I know how I feel after the Villa game and Man U supporters were just as angry after the Sheffield match. The result robbed them of 3 points and the chance to go top of the league. This report just rubs it in. The FA ought to be looking at match officials and why VAR isn't working as effectively as in other sports and take some action, urgently.

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1 hour ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Manchester United have received a report on their match against Sheffield United recently. There were 2 contentious decisions in that game which this report confirms were both wrong. I am no Man U fan but I know how I feel after the Villa game and Man U supporters were just as angry after the Sheffield match. The result robbed them of 3 points and the chance to go top of the league. This report just rubs it in. The FA ought to be looking at match officials and why VAR isn't working as effectively as in other sports and take some action, urgently.

So two teams who had decisions go against them in their last match play each other tonight. No prizes for guessing which one will benefit from the "even thing out" process.

Clue: it won't be us

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It’s all well and good everyone saying bin it now when a couple have gone against us, but last season at a couple of games most the ground were singing ‘VAR it’s one of our own’, and would be again once back in grounds no doubt if one goes our way.

The game is being completely destroyed by this anal use of technology. The one thing that makes 100s of miles travelled, season after season watched and all the £ spent worthwhile are those moments of pure joy. Stokes at Wembley, Moran at Fratton, Long at Anfield.

But I bet any money the next time one goes in our favour this thread and the moans will disappear.

Just another nail in the football coffin and another set of fans that don’t really have any substance about them to oppose it properly.

 

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Just now, Saint_clark said:

Yep, I won't be watching from next season if VAR is still involved.

The TV companies have bought the coverage and now they’ve bought the game too. I said this at the beginning about VAR. TV has gone from being a spectator to being involved in the matches.

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VAR isn’t the problem

 

all VAR does is highlight the incompetencies of those who implement the rules and those that officiate on them.

the che Adam’s offside isn’t the fault of VAR, that is the fault of continual indecision from lawmakers about what is offside and the confusion stemming from this.

 

Bednarek getting sent off isn’t the fault of VAR its the fault of a referee with no idea what he is doing

 

VAR needs 2 things

 

1) better rules implemented so we know what the decision will be most times

2) we should hear the communication just like in other sports so we know why a decision has been made

 

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