Birmingham City 3-4 Saints - Match Thread

[SambaMaverick]

That train home was the seventh circle of hell

[a1ex2001]

4 hours ago, gio1saints said:

So what do you want? His head on a stick? You don’t want him to take the blame for when we play bad? It’s some kind of trick? He does not mean it? He’s lying?  You want him to call the players out by name and say they are shit? God your post is so unthinking it’s not true. He just cannot win with you can he! 

 

What he’s saying is he’s like RM to take his share of the blame when things are dire and then reflect and improve things for the next game, no point accepting the blame if you don’t learn anything!  Manning keeps appearing despite being possibly our worst left back since Patric Colleter pulled in the shirt and we insist of playing every single ball out from the back inviting pressure because it is so predictable we need to mix it up just a tiny little bit.  Saying you accept the blame but not changing is like a toddler saying sorry to get a toy back …. utterly meaningless.

Anyway COYS great result and we still have a chance of the automatic spots. 

[SaintBobby]

26 minutes ago, Mr Saints said:

Anyone else think Che’s goal was the most Che Adams goal ever?!

No. He usually doesn’t score after falling over first. He usually just falls over. So having the two together is damned rare!

[JRM]

15 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said:

That train home was the seventh circle of hell

20.03 from New Street? Ridiculous that line has so few carriages, heating on too high as well. 

Good drink up though, weird game, think we were better side but got lucky after conceding stupid goals once again, just got to try to keep it going and stay in the mix. I heard Leicester were booed off , definitely seem to be wobbling would be interesting if they.were sucked back into the pack. 

[JRM]

 

[warsash saint]

Been to most away games this season & have to say the fans were probably the best today - never seen so many limbs for the goals that put us in front.

Singing near all game & only a few P*mpey songs aswell   Great effort to all those that went. (having reread the match thread, it certainly beats following the game on here!!)

 

[Weston Super Saint]

11 hours ago, gio1saints said:

So what do you want? His head on a stick? You don’t want him to take the blame for when we play bad? It’s some kind of trick? He does not mean it? He’s lying?  You want him to call the players out by name and say they are shit? God your post is so unthinking it’s not true. He just cannot win with you can he! 

 

I'm guessing you didn't bother to read all of his post, otherwise you wouldn't have missed the bit in bold which outlines exactly 'what he wants' :

11 hours ago, Jack said:

RM has “taken the blame” a few times recently (Bristol City, Millwall, Hull) but it’s just his was of deflecting blame away from the players rather than an actual admission of getting it wrong. 
 

Fair play for that, but if he actually thought that he’d got something wrong then he wouldn’t just repeat it the next week. 

 

[austsaint]

In the end it was one of those "hail mary" results, even though on the balance of chances created and shots on target, it really should have been a comfortable win.     Worrying that Brum looked a fairly mediocre side, even before the red card, yet we made such a struggle of getting the three points.

Stephen's had quite a good game at CB, with an interesting spell in midfield.   Just the same,  THB and Bednarek have to be restored as a combination.    Once again the weakness of Manning's defensive and positional game were there for all to see.    Quite a few praising Smallbone - I thought he was a peripheral player again (bit rich to call the Brooks goal an assist) and Aribo was unlucky not to start in his place.    Interesting how opinions on WS vary so much!     

AA was busy and creative all afternoon; Stu A had his moments and Downes immediately made our midfield stronger.  Adams could/should easily have had a hat-trick.

Crucial three points - maybe Gareth Bale was right; we should all have defibrillators close by!

[doc oli]

https://www.fotmob.com/en-GB/matches/southampton-vs-birmingham-city/2fauoc#4202660

62 touches in their box yesterday. It looked great  but felt like we were trying to walk it in at times

[Convict Colony]

What has happened to our defence.

Assuming KWP needs a couple of games out I would go with Bree over manning and THB on the right as he played well there yesterday, everything came down the left.

[musesaint]

1 minute ago, Convict Colony said:

What has happened to our defence.

Assuming KWP needs a couple of games out I would go with Bree over manning and THB on the right as he played well there yesterday, everything came down the left.

The brilliant strategy of playing players in the positions where they should actually be playing! Will Russell dare the impossible ?? 😲

[ChristopheVAFC]

You've got a lot of emotion right up to the last second!

Congratulations on a very important victory that keeps you close to the top of the league table.

I'm really admiring your progress!

[macca155]

11 hours ago, WALK DMC said:

I was in the pub with a Chelsea fan before the game. He said that Lavia has only managed 13 minutes this season. How I'm glad that we didn't keep him, even with Saints he seemed to be injury prone.

Valid point I must admit and at the moment we have the best part of that million pound deal.

However my thoughts were really about Lavia the player. He should have been protected a bit more, he's still young, but imagine the impact a fit Lavia would have I'm this league.

[david in sweden]

20 hours ago, Chez said:

you are underestimating the opponent a little I feel. The City season has been up and down for sure. They were going really well when they stupidly sacked the manager and brought in Rooney. They smashed WBA having been behind. A terrible decision by the owners.  Since Rooney was sacked, and Mowbray came in, they have been much better, especially at home. In the last three home games they have beaten Sunderland, Blackburn and Hull. Before that, two draws against Bristol City and Swansea. 

you have an argument  there Chez, but the fact remains that all sides have a good run once in a while, but it's consistency that is vital.

Despite those 20 plus league games without defeat ...we still didn't manage to nail down a spot in the top two, and the 3 defeats in 4 games 

has proven our vulnerability when using  Russball tactics.   We finally got the result, but made hard work of it,  but we have seen that every team

that plays with tough defenders can easily " wipe out "  our lightweight attack, and get away with it .  The ref. was very kind to Brum on several occasions.

The red card was deserved, and I was relieved to see Will Smallbone getting up afterwards and was able to play on. 

 

In the end , it was 3 points, well-deserved but these type of last-minute finishes plays havoc with my blood pressure. 

[saintant]

9 hours ago, Mr Saints said:

Anyone else think Che’s goal was the most Che Adams goal ever?!

So you are not prepared to take into account the state of the pitch? There had been a deluge and clearly the ground was very slippery. Not surprisingly, as Che applied leverage to get to the ball his feet gave way. However, despite that, he still had the presence of mind, strength and determination to be first to the ball and put it in the net. He did very well from what I saw on replays of the goal. Yes, he is guilty of some bad misses but let's not find ways to take the piss out of the ones he scores.

[John B]

Just now, saintant said:

So you are not prepared to take into account the state of the pitch? There had been a deluge and clearly the ground was very slippery. Not surprisingly, as Che applied leverage to get to the ball his feet gave way. However, despite that, he still had the presence of mind, strength and determination to be first to the ball and put it in the net. He did very well from what I saw on replays of the goal. Yes, he is guilty of some bad misses but let's not find ways to take the piss out of the ones he scores.

If he was not guilty of some bad misses I doubt he would be playing for us

[david in sweden]

12 hours ago, WALK DMC said:

I was in the pub with a Chelsea fan before the game. He said that Lavia has only managed 13 minutes this season.

How I'm glad that we didn't keep him, even with Saints he seemed to be injury prone.

In some respects the same might be said of Livramento . Young players who " look good at U21 level " .. get a REAL shock when they come up

against top class pro's at the highest level, and the stress on  " young bodies "  that are still developing quickly becomes a telling factor. 

 

It was obvious that even after a good " half season " with Saints,  Broja's  tough physique took it's toll with knocks and injuries, (same with ABK). 

Like LIvramento..  Lavia  looked good.. for a while, but young talents need time to adjust to "the man's game " and find their place in a good side.

Getting in young talent is positive, but cannot be relied on to show up make the difference single-handedly especially in a mediocre side. 

 

We've better this season, with Downes and Harwood-Bellis, but Shea Charles will look back on this season as the start of a steep learning curve,

and even after last season,  I remain unconvinced about Mara  and Edozie as regular starters ... if / when we get back to the Prem.

 

In retrospect, the deals for Lavia  and LIvramento were very good business at the time, and if Alvarez stays with a very good Juventus side

permanently, it will be a win-win situation....for a player who was still finding his feet in the Championship and spent too much time on our bench.

 

[saintant]

57 minutes ago, musesaint said:

The brilliant strategy of playing players in the positions where they should actually be playing! Will Russell dare the impossible ?? 😲

If I was Bree, a recognised full back who is solid every time he plays, I'd be pretty pissed off that a centre back is being picked in my position. 

[Doctoroncall]

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

In the end it was one of those "hail mary" results, even though on the balance of chances created and shots on target, it really should have been a comfortable win.     Worrying that Brum looked a fairly mediocre side, even before the red card, yet we made such a struggle of getting the three points.

Stephen's had quite a good game at CB, with an interesting spell in midfield.   Just the same,  THB and Bednarek have to be restored as a combination.    Once again the weakness of Manning's defensive and positional game were there for all to see.    Quite a few praising Smallbone - I thought he was a peripheral player again (bit rich to call the Brooks goal an assist) and Aribo was unlucky not to start in his place.    Interesting how opinions on WS vary so much!     

AA was busy and creative all afternoon; Stu A had his moments and Downes immediately made our midfield stronger.  Adams could/should easily have had a hat-trick.

Crucial three points - maybe Gareth Bale was right; we should all have defibrillators close by!

Smallbone took a brum player with him which helped Brooks advance and shoot. 

[Harry_SFC]

16 minutes ago, John B said:

If he was not guilty of some bad misses I doubt he would be playing for us

Indeed. His hold up play and passing in the main was really good (a couple of poor moments granted). I'm glad he's putting to bed the ridiculous mantra that he only performs during the transfer windows. 

Edited March 3 by Harry_SFC

[gio1saints]

9 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

What he’s saying is he’s like RM to take his share of the blame when things are dire and then reflect and improve things for the next game, no point accepting the blame if you don’t learn anything!  Manning keeps appearing despite being possibly our worst left back since Patric Colleter pulled in the shirt and we insist of playing every single ball out from the back inviting pressure because it is so predictable we need to mix it up just a tiny little bit.  Saying you accept the blame but not changing is like a toddler saying sorry to get a toy back …. utterly meaningless.

Anyway COYS great result and we still have a chance of the automatic spots. 
 

 

I see what you mean and you are right - I did take the OP comment at first sight as not giving RM any outs on what to say at press time. Sry. 

IMO this “issue” seems to define the club this year under RM. 

What you, and many others, call not making sufficient or adequate adjustments ( or “ learning by our mistakes”, )  to our style/tactics/set up pre match and in-match is a reasonably fair and accurate call.

But in its defence I think there’s a very clear ( rightly or wrongly) football philosophy reason for that which RM and team are steadfastly attached to : 

Saints prepare for each match thoroughly by watching previous oppo matches, analysing the strengths and weaknesses of the team they are facing at granular level , then talking to the players and the player units about the likely scenarios tactics players they will be face in match etc. RM and his back room team pick an 11 to start accordingly. We all know this. So the “knowledge” is there for change if desired. And even fans not football professionals and coaches can see with our own eyes what’s going wrong and why on the pitch sometimes. 
 

If and when we are taken by surprise by the tactics ( Bristol City good example) the speed of reaction can be criticised.
 

Some of the BEST all time managers see things quicker know how to counter it quicker and have also trained their players in the mental, technical and tactical flexibility required to adjust playing style mid-match. 

At Saints we have a team very well drilled in one style of play but with relatively limited ability - or and this is the key part- even desire - to play differently. The message is that playing in this style they will score more than the opposition. Because most of the time the opposition will not have the ball. 
 

The issue seems to be that it’s an all or nothing approach. RM cannot just drop it and play 442 or some other way because that gives the lie to every thing that went before.

In the purest sense he is right. IF we have the ball they cannot score - we are the only team that can score. And with teams of similar ability we should win more than we lose. 
 

Sticking to that philosophy even when being defensively bad as per recently may cost us Promotion . OR it may propel us to the EPL as a force to be reckoned with. That’s the risk Saints take. 
 

Personally I’m happy to go for it this way. There’s something naive faithful and noble - dare I say Saintly about us at same time that appeals to me as a long term supporter. 

Edited March 3 by gio1saints

[Farmer Saint]

7 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Indeed. His hold up play and passing in the main was really good (a couple of poor moments granted). I'm glad he's putting to bed the ridiculous mantra that he only performs during the transfer windows. 

Not sure if you're talking about Che Adams, but if you are I agree. His hold up play and release of the ball is very decent. If he could finish 2 in 5 more chances, he'd be a Premier League player, easily. But he doesn't, so he isn't. 

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

What has happened to our defence.

Assuming KWP needs a couple of games out I would go with Bree over manning and THB on the right as he played well there yesterday, everything came down the left.

play bree, THB, bednarek and KWP (when fit) in a conventional back four with no full back in midfield crap and that should be more than adequate for this league. 

[HKsaint]

18 hours ago, stknowle said:

Would you seriously pull the trigger now HK my old pal?

Yes, if he insists on playing Manning, HK my old pal. 

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, austsaint said:

Quite a few praising Smallbone - I thought he was a peripheral player again (bit rich to call the Brooks goal an assist) and Aribo was unlucky not to start in his place.    Interesting how opinions on WS vary so much!    

2 assists (and yes they were both assists in the true sense), involved in the build up for a 3rd, two (at least) shots on target, directly involved in getting the Brum player red-carded by his direct run towards the box. Man of the Match. Yes, sure he was peripheral to the game.

[Oldandtired]

As others have said, a Hail Mary win, but a very welcome and essential win nevertheless. 
 

One thing I found slightly bemusing was a line from the manager’s post match comments (set against the background of the number of goals we are conceding lately):

"To play the, way we play you have to be a bit vulnerable sometimes with the ball. It's a bit scary. But I've loved watching it. And that spirit will help us for sure in the last quarter of the season."
 

To admit that your brand of football leaves you vulnerable and scares even the manager seems a bit odd to me. I would hope that when we concede because of the way we play he doesn’t love it quite as much. Surely most managers would have a plan B?

I hope I’m not moaning just because I can, I just found his comment rather odd. We can’t always be scoring four when we have conceded three.

Edited March 3 by Oldandtired

[Jack]

3 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

As others have said, a Hail Mary win, but very a welcome and essential win nevertheless. 
 

One thing I found slightly bemusing was a line from the manager’s post match comments (set against the background of the number of goals we are conceding lately):

"To play the, way we play you have to be a bit vulnerable sometimes with the ball. It's a bit scary. But I've loved watching it. And that spirit will help us for sure in the last quarter of the season."
 

To admit that your brand of football leaves you vulnerable and scares even the manager seems a bit odd to me. I would hope that when we concede because of the way we play he doesn’t love it quite as much. Surely most managers would have a plan B?

I hope I’m not moaning just because I can, I just found his comment rather odd. We can’t always be scoring four when we have conceded three.

Yeah it’s just waffle. He was hugely proud of our defensive record when we’d conceded 3 in about 10 games. 
 

If he’s not arsed about conceding so many goals then we’ve got a real problem. 

[stknowle]

22 minutes ago, HKsaint said:

Yes, if he insists on playing Manning, HK my old pal. 

It is tantamount to a sackable offence tbf HK m.o.p. 

[stknowle]

31 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

play bree, THB, bednarek and KWP (when fit) in a conventional back four with no full back in midfield crap and that should be more than adequate for this league. 

Indeed, if it’s broken fucking mend it. In this case by simply arranging a defence in a standard formation with the best players available in their normal positions.

Edited March 3 by stknowle

[gio1saints]

9 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

As others have said, a Hail Mary win, but very a welcome and essential win nevertheless. 
 

One thing I found slightly bemusing was a line from the manager’s post match comments (set against the background of the number of goals we are conceding lately):

"To play the, way we play you have to be a bit vulnerable sometimes with the ball. It's a bit scary. But I've loved watching it. And that spirit will help us for sure in the last quarter of the season."
 

To admit that your brand of football leaves you vulnerable and scares even the manager seems a bit odd to me. I would hope that when we concede because of the way we play he doesn’t love it quite as much. Surely most managers would have a plan B?

I hope I’m not moaning just because I can, I just found his comment rather odd. We can’t always be scoring four when we have conceded three.

Bit like the philosophy the 70’s Brazil seemed to play to- Basically we will score more than you. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, gio1saints said:

Bit like the philosophy the 70’s Brazil seemed to play to- Basically we will score more than you. 

It will need to be tweaked quite significantly should we go up though, you can't play that way in the PL - as the better quality will always score more than any quality you have.

Edited March 3 by S-Clarke

[Jack]

7 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Bit like the philosophy the 70’s Brazil seemed to play to- Basically we will score more than you. 

It’d be ok if you could guarantee enough goals out of our forwards. But it’s absolutely no shock that our best run of form was when we looked (relatively) defensively sound and kept lots of clean sheets 

[gio1saints]

5 minutes ago, Jack said:

It’d be ok if you could guarantee enough goals out of our forwards. But it’s absolutely no shock that our best run of form was when we looked (relatively) defensively sound and kept lots of clean sheets 

True. Our style does create a lot of XG and tbf we are pretty good - not rubbish at converting chances overall - it’s just we seem to out concede the XG for opponents with regularity and that’s been the problem all season. 

Edited March 3 by gio1saints

[Badger]

16 hours ago, Exeter Saint said:

I quite like Martin but for those of you who don’t, maybe we could replace him with Maresca. With that defeat at home to QPR, apparently he’s lost the dressing room.

Presumably this is in jest.

Seems to me they’re cut from the same cloth, obsessed with possession based football. Would be like replacing Tweedledum with Tweedledee.

Have said before, I don’t think Maresca would have done any better with our squad. Although that’s completely hypothetical, like how RM might do with their squad.

On balance, I think RM was the better choice of the two for us (however he ended up here as first or second choice). 

[notnowcato]

It's hard to believe we won a very exciting game, playing some outstanding football.  The number of times we went from defensive third to offensive third was beautiful to watch, I also loved the Jack "Johnny Stones" Stephens act.  Another tough game coming up. 😇

[S-Clarke]

6 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

The number of times we went from defensive third to offensive third was beautiful to watch

This hasn't been talked about enough imo - we were utterly relentless in how we moved through the final thirds, chance after chance - didn't we hit the post 3 times? All coming from drawing the press by playing at the back, and then bang, bang, bang - through on goal. It was a clear demonstration of how this high risk philosophy can benefit hugely in terms of chance creation.

Honestly Brum couldn't have complained had we won that 4 or 5 nill yesterday, would have been an absolute travesty had we not won that one. We were levels above, just kept getting caught by individual moments.

[Tamesaint]

24 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

This hasn't been talked about enough imo - we were utterly relentless in how we moved through the final thirds, chance after chance - didn't we hit the post 3 times? All coming from drawing the press by playing at the back, and then bang, bang, bang - through on goal. It was a clear demonstration of how this high risk philosophy can benefit hugely in terms of chance creation.

Honestly Brum couldn't have complained had we won that 4 or 5 nill yesterday, would have been an absolute travesty had we not won that one. We were levels above, just kept getting caught by individual moments.

I couldn't agree more. Once we got into their half we caused them trouble and a win was what we deserved. 

Leicester losing at home to QPR was a turn up for the books. They have lost their last 3 league games and have some tough looking ones coming up. They could well be caught - but I am not sure that it will be by us. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Tamesaint said:

I couldn't agree more. Once we got into their half we caused them trouble and a win was what we deserved. 

Leicester losing at home to QPR was a turn up for the books. They have lost their last 3 league games and have some tough looking ones coming up. They could well be caught - but I am not sure that it will be by us. 

it is a bit of a shame we are not playing them as originally planned. 

[ErwinK1961]

17 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

it is a bit of a shame we are not playing them as originally planned. 

Agreed, would have been interesting.

[Charlie Wayman]

I cannot comment much on the match performance as I didn't see it either live or streamed but I did catch Martin's usual post-match bullshit rhetoric about being angry, very poor defending and giving away sloppy goals while heaping the blame on himself and his coaches, saying that they need to address the problem! He's sounding more and more like a stuck record every week.

Funny thing is that despite all of this verbal nonsense seemingly nothing is ever done about our defending and nothing changes. Should we conclude that he and his coaches are clueless when it comes to sorting out our defending problems or are the players incapable of adapting their game to improve the situation.

4-3 may sound exciting and probably was for the stalwarts who trekked up to Birmingham yesterday but it won't cut the mustard in the Premier League.

Ah! I hear you say that in the summer we will buy better quality players than Manning and Stevens to improve our defence so all will be well.

Wanna bet?

[The Cat]

This is a great video. I particularly like the way the woman supporting Birmingham shouts "SHIT" just before Aribo scores.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4DjZCsvuAr/?igsh=MWtxcGs5aGp6Y3A0OQ==

 

 

[SNSUN]

51 minutes ago, The Cat said:

This is a great video. I particularly like the way the woman supporting Birmingham shouts "SHIT" just before Aribo scores.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4DjZCsvuAr/?igsh=MWtxcGs5aGp6Y3A0OQ==

 

 

"Fuck you you fucking wankah!" Didn't sound very Brummie that...

[gio1saints]

This is a nice team view of our beautiful first. Especially for those who hate all that fannying around we do🤣https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4DdXSQMMFV/?igsh=YTMxMzhwdHpncWJv

[notnowcato]

2 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

I cannot comment much on the match performance as I didn't see it either live or streamed but I did catch Martin's usual post-match bullshit rhetoric about being angry, very poor defending and giving away sloppy goals while heaping the blame on himself and his coaches, saying that they need to address the problem! He's sounding more and more like a stuck record every week.

Funny thing is that despite all of this verbal nonsense seemingly nothing is ever done about our defending and nothing changes. Should we conclude that he and his coaches are clueless when it comes to sorting out our defending problems or are the players incapable of adapting their game to improve the situation.

4-3 may sound exciting and probably was for the stalwarts who trekked up to Birmingham yesterday but it won't cut the mustard in the Premier League.

Ah! I hear you say that in the summer we will buy better quality players than Manning and Stevens to improve our defence so all will be well.

Wanna bet?

Yep

[Gloucester Saint]

Crazy game, great ending. We were superb going forward, could be more clinical still, but at the back a mess. Manning really does need swapping for Bree asap. Bree is actually better with crosses and passing, let alone defensively. Or put Meghoma at LB and Bree RB until KWP fit again. Disrupting the JB/THB partnership is not smart.

Their caretaker manager I remember scoring a worldie at SMS in 2001 - check this out for a 25 yard monster  https://www.premierleague.com/video/single/863857

[ErwinK1961]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Crazy game, great ending. We were superb going forward, could be more clinical still, but at the back a mess. Manning really does need swapping for Bree asap. Bree is actually better with crosses and passing, let alone defensively. Or put Meghoma at LB and Bree RB until KWP fit again. Disrupting the JB/THB partnership is not smart.

Their caretaker manager I remember scoring a worldie at SMS in 2001 - check this out for a 25 yard monster  https://www.premierleague.com/video/single/863857

That Strachans first game I think?

[Jack]

Haven’t really seen it mentioned but Arma looked suspiciously offside for his one. But I haven’t seen any footage more zoomed out or in line, anyone seen anything? 

[pingpong]

6 minutes ago, Jack said:

Haven’t really seen it mentioned but Arma looked suspiciously offside for his one. But I haven’t seen any footage more zoomed out or in line, anyone seen anything? 

He was on. I don't have the tech skills to add a screenshot but at 20secs in you can pause it, and if you look at pitch pattern, you can see he is further back into the dark green than their left back.

 

 

[Jack]

 

Fair play, thanks. Very tight but definitely just onside

Edited March 3 by Jack

[saintstowin]

Having seen the highlights a few times now, we had so many opportunities and there were multiple lovely (and relatively fast for us) movements of the ball and players making great runs. 

I wonder if that left us a bit more exposed, seeing as we may have left an above average amount of space for them to exploit. But I didn't see the whole game. 

Their first goal, yes Manning is too far across (he's behind you!). And then one angle of the finish shows he deflected it enough to make the save improbable. Bad play and unlucky. 

Goal 2. What a mess. Just terrible communication, and then decision making to head a ball you can't get a good contact on. 

But the forward play was pretty special at times I thought. 

I honestly think we may as well go for it now, try to score more than the others even if they get two or three. We've got the players to do it. And it seems defensively we may be going through a bad patch so clean sheets might be few and far between.