Saints 0-6 Chelsea - Match Thread

[davefizzy14]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I thought so too. Armstrong was putting himself about and when he did get the ball Chelsea had trouble trying to get it back off him. Very lively.

Absolutely this. I thought Adam Armstrong was lively, putting himself about and making clever runs. I couldn't believe that he was substituted at half time. He deserves to start in the next game. 

Edited 10 April, 2022 by davefizzy14

[DT]

40 minutes ago, gallaghert366@yahoo.com said:

Where do think Southampton FC would be in the league with either Klopp or Guardiola in charge?

Yawn

[VectisSaint]

39 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

In other words, we are predictable and only play RalphBall.

This is where things have been going wrong for me, starting with Villa. Teams have sussed us out and know that unless Romeu and JWP are absolutely at their best having 3 in midfield opens us up like a sardine can. Coutinho completely wiped us out, and Chelsea did the same in MF yesterday, and I think Everton did as well. Its not a case of our strikers being woeful (thought they are), or even our defenders (though the current Salisu and Bednarek are woeful), we lose matches in midfield. I said all season that we needed more midfield players, we have 2 in every position apart from CM where we really only have 3 players for the 2 places. Having that extra player would allow us to have 3 in the middle at times when it is needed, obviously Diallo could play in there but it leaves nothing on the bench to make changes. What did happen to Romeu yesterday, why was he subbed? Even at their best (and they can be very good) JWP and OR can be completely overrun by an effective 3, when one or both of them are having off days we have no hope.

[derry]

Fundamentally there was a massive problem because Elyanoussi didn't engage, press, or get involved. He hardly got out of a stroll and just stood off. He should have been the first off the pitch not Romeu. If we are going to play teams playing like Chelsea we have to change our approach. Balance is vital and that means KWP on the right and Perrauld on the left. Since he was injured Liveramento's performances have fallen off a cliff. Bednarek lacks pace so pushing up is fatal, Salisu is obscenely left sided so getting caught dwelling on the ball on the right side was an accident waiting to happen.

When we had the ball we fiddled and lost it. The back four need to stop passing it around, none of them are good ball players or passers so recycling just plays into the oppositions press. In the end Forster is forced to hit it long so win the ball and hit it through the centre backs and give our front runners the chance to harry and win the ball.

We would have relieved many situations yesterday if the defenders had immediately put their boot through the ball it would have allowed the defence to stay compact and given 50/50 balls into the Chelsea end. Since we started again to try and pass the ball at the back we haven't won a game. For me it's horses for courses not a one style fits all approach. How would Chelsea have fared against two midfielders holding and a back four not forced to push up. Certainly not as well as the acres of space we gifted them.

[gallaghert366@yahoo.com]

45 minutes ago, DT said:

Yawn

So stop your negative remarks about Ralph's stewardship.   

You have a short memory regarding the performances of managers immediately before Ralph arrived.

Staying in the Premiership is the main goal from day one.

Currently there are eighteen ex top flight clubs in the Championship and five more in League One.

I'm sure their supporters would prefer their club to be in The Saints position.

 

Give me another Yawn!

[CanadaSaint]

1 hour ago, derry said:

Fundamentally there was a massive problem because Elyanoussi didn't engage, press, or get involved. He hardly got out of a stroll and just stood off. He should have been the first off the pitch not Romeu. If we are going to play teams playing like Chelsea we have to change our approach. Balance is vital and that means KWP on the right and Perrauld on the left. Since he was injured Liveramento's performances have fallen off a cliff. Bednarek lacks pace so pushing up is fatal, Salisu is obscenely left sided so getting caught dwelling on the ball on the right side was an accident waiting to happen.

When we had the ball we fiddled and lost it. The back four need to stop passing it around, none of them are good ball players or passers so recycling just plays into the oppositions press. In the end Forster is forced to hit it long so win the ball and hit it through the centre backs and give our front runners the chance to harry and win the ball.

We would have relieved many situations yesterday if the defenders had immediately put their boot through the ball it would have allowed the defence to stay compact and given 50/50 balls into the Chelsea end. Since we started again to try and pass the ball at the back we haven't won a game. For me it's horses for courses not a one style fits all approach. How would Chelsea have fared against two midfielders holding and a back four not forced to push up. Certainly not as well as the acres of space we gifted them.

Agree completely. As long as we play KWP on the left we will be dangerously unbalanced; it was abundantly clear as far back as Norwich away because I voiced concerns about it then. Salisu gets sucked out to a wider covering role, and the reactive, un-anticipative Bednarek is left with too much space for his limited brain to process. KWP is a better RB/RWB than Tino, Perrauld is a better LB/LWB than KWP (not a better player), Salisu is a more composed CD with a left-footed LB/LWB alongside him, and Bednarek is less of a defensive clusterf*ck if he has less space to cover. That balance leaves Romeu and JWP with much more manageable defensive roles.

With just ONE change we become much less vulnerable defensively, but Ralph just won't accept the blatantly obvious. It's really hurting Salisu individually, and exposing Bednarek even more. All I can imagine is that Tino's automatic RB/RWB selection is the product of agreements made when we signed him.

And while I'm venting, I would love to know what semblance of twisted logic rests behind the recurrent decision to send Salisu 75 yards away from the area of his defensive remit to take a useless, lazy parabola of a throw-in. That is likely to end up only one way, as it did again yesterday - with the ball coming back at us while we scramble vainly to get back.

Ralph has many talents but his arrogance and obstinacy have always been his Achilles heel. The players notice this stuff - as they do when the wrong players are taken off and the wrong ones left on, and they end up looking as uncommitted we we did yesterday.

I've supported Ralph all through, despite his arrogance and obstinacy, but the ice is cracking under his feet.

Edited 10 April, 2022 by CanadaSaint

[Whitey Grandad]

54 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

Agree completely. As long as we play KWP on the left we will be dangerously unbalanced; it was abundantly clear as far back as Norwich away because I voiced concerns about it then. Salisu gets sucked out to a wider covering role, and the reactive, un-anticipative Bednarek is left with too much space for his limited brain to process. KWP is a better RB/RWB than Tino, Perrauld is a better LB/LWB than KWP (not a better player), Salisu is a more composed CD with a left-footed LB/LWB alongside him, and Bednarek is less of a defensive clusterf*ck if he has less space to cover. That balance leaves Romeu and JWP with much more manageable defensive roles.

With just ONE change we become much less vulnerable defensively, but Ralph just won't accept the blatantly obvious. It's really hurting Salisu individually, and exposing Bednarek even more. All I can imagine is that Tino's automatic RB/RWB selection is the product of agreements made when we signed him.

And while I'm venting, I would love to know what semblance of twisted logic rests behind the recurrent decision to send Salisu 75 yards away from the area of his defensive remit to take a useless, lazy parabola of a throw-in. That is likely to end up only one way, as it did again yesterday - with the ball coming back at us while we scramble vainly to get back.

Ralph has many talents but his arrogance and obstinacy have always been his Achilles heel. The players notice this stuff - as they do when the wrong players are taken off and the wrong ones left on, and they end up looking as uncommitted we we did yesterday.

I've supported Ralph all through, despite his arrogance and obstinacy, but the ice is cracking under his feet.

Once he’s our player it’s up to us to decide when and if he plays.

[Toussaint]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Once he’s our player it’s up to us to decide when and if he plays.

You’d think so, but there does seem to have been some kind of undertaking that he plays if fit. I like him, but like a lot of us I think we would be far better with Peraud left and KWP right. I really like Peraud, he’s a good wing back, puts in great crosses but mostly became is a feisty petit mehrd, which we could have done with in yesterday’s embarrassing capitulation. As much as we’ve done it to death, with Elyounussi’s massive drop of we could give him a go on the right of midfield.

I think Peraud carried the can for the Villa defeat which is unfair as he was left hopelessly exposed. 

[Chez]

Forget balance, KWP should play right back because Livramento simply isn't a great defender. We need to tighten up. 

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Once he’s our player it’s up to us to decide when and if he plays.

Technically true, but if he was signed on the promise to get lots of playing time it wouldn't be a good idea to renege on that understanding. It's not like he's been crap (although, like many, I think Perraud LB and KWP RB is the best line up at this time).

Also, I think Ralph and the club are hoping to sign more young talent from the big boys, with the selling point that they'd get more playing time at the Saints. Tino playing regularly could be with that in mind.

[Badger]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

Forget balance, KWP should play right back because Livramento simply isn't a great defender. We need to tighten up. 

For me it should be a simple matter of playing your best RB and LB in their natural positions. Having KWP as an option for LB when needed is great, but it shouldn't be the default option.

Obviously three into two won't go if they are all fit, so unless Livramento is moved forward - as many see as a natural progression - then someone will be unhappy at not not being selected. So perhaps the thinking is why piss off one of your players when you can piss off two of your better players by not playing them/or playing out of position ? 

[The Kraken]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

Forget balance, KWP should play right back because Livramento simply isn't a great defender. We need to tighten up. 

Not that I disagree, but I think Ralph massively rates Livramento. There’s quotes given to Ralph when Livra arrived saying that he thought he could be our best player within six months. I think it explains why Ralph persists, he’s clearly got huge faith in the lad.

[Chez]

Just now, The Kraken said:

Not that I disagree, but I think Ralph massively rates Livramento. There’s quotes given to Ralph when Livra arrived saying that he thought he could be our best player within six months. I think it explains why Ralph persists, he’s clearly got huge faith in the lad.

he can play, no doubt it, but he ball watches and is positionally suspect. KWP is a better defender.

We are shipping goals. We need to get pressure o the ball in midfield and defenders that can defend to give us something to build on. 

[Whitey Grandad]

45 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Technically true, but if he was signed on the promise to get lots of playing time it wouldn't be a good idea to renege on that understanding. It's not like he's been crap (although, like many, I think Perraud LB and KWP RB is the best line up at this time).

Also, I think Ralph and the club are hoping to sign more young talent from the big boys, with the selling point that they'd get more playing time at the Saints. Tino playing regularly could be with that in mind.

Possibly, and we can never know, but any promise can only have been to the player himself and not to any third party. As you say, the plan might be to give him as much playing time as possible both to improve him as a player and to showcase his talents but I don’t think it’s ever a good idea for any player to think that his place in the team is guaranteed.

[The Kraken]

Just now, Chez said:

he can play, no doubt it, but he ball watches and is positionally suspect. KWP is a better defender.

We are shipping goals. We need to get pressure o the ball in midfield and defenders that can defend to give us something to build on. 

Yep, I agree, I think KWP is the better defender, Livramento better going forward.

[HarvSFC]

When Livramento first joined he showed he is an exceptional talent. However, he is still just 19 and it’s hard for many to be consistent at Premier League level, let alone a teenager in their first season. He’s been off the boil for a few months now, since Villa kicked him to bits in the home match and it’s now poor management to keep playing him each week, rather than taking him out of the deep end. 

The club will answer back at fans via Twitter when the decision makers get one thing right that was initially ridiculed by fans, such as the West Ham starting lineup, which now looks more costly in the long-term, but that also means nothing when they’re not taking Salisu off long throws, continuing with the high defensive line and not playing KWP in his strongest position/his natural side, as we’re seeing the same result every week now.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Since Perraud puts in so much effort, Livramento is just the sort of player you'd want to come off the bench. Switch across KWP and play Livra on the right. That still a lot of minutes for someone that age. Particularly after having had a good run in the team. And there would be starts ahead of him too, due to fatigue/ injuries etc.

There's no point in running the kid into the ground in a slumping team, when we have a better balance available. We can still have an eye on The Magical Pathway by showing just how involved he and Broja have been this season. Loads of players would be queuing up to get those sorts of first team minutes in the Premier League.

[East Kent Saint]

12 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The players all gave up after JWP made an assist for their third with his reckless header. 

What was JWP doing , he never heads the ball 🙂

[Whitey Grandad]

48 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

What was JWP doing , he never heads the ball 🙂

Maybe that’s why he got it so wrong. But I suppose that’s what you meant.

[Jonnyboy]

3 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Yep, I agree, I think KWP is the better defender, Livramento better going forward.

I havent seen Livra do such mazy attacking dribbles as KWP. 

[Saint_clark]

7 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Yep, I agree, I think KWP is the better defender, Livramento better going forward.

I haven't seen evidence of Livramento being better going forward. KWP is just better in every department.

[benjii]

You can see why Chelsea sold Livramento. They obviously don't think he's technically good enough. Running powerfully in a straight line with your head down might work well at youth level if you're physically strong but isn't much use in the Premier League unless you're built like Lukaku or Antonio. No doubt someone will be along to post a "carries" stat but when your carries end in a bad cross or running straight into the middle of the pitch and getting tackled then it's irrelevant. 

He has great potential but simply shouldn't be a starter every week as things stand, and Ralph has mismanaged our full backs this season IMO.

[Dman]

4 hours ago, benjii said:

You can see why Chelsea sold Livramento. They obviously don't think he's technically good enough. Running powerfully in a straight line with your head down might work well at youth level if you're physically strong but isn't much use in the Premier League unless you're built like Lukaku or Antonio. No doubt someone will be along to post a "carries" stat but when your carries end in a bad cross or running straight into the middle of the pitch and getting tackled then it's irrelevant. 

He has great potential but simply shouldn't be a starter every week as things stand, and Ralph has mismanaged our full backs this season IMO.

Agree. Miles behind someone like James, but at a similar age, James was learning his trade with Wigan, not in the premier league and all the pressures that bring. 
 

I think at the minute, he’d be fantastic as a wing back in a 343, but in a back 4, he’s not strong enough defensively imo. 

[OldNick]

Personally, I would be against renewing Elyanoussi  contract. He flatters to deceive. Its all well and good Ralph saying Redmond gave assists but not score, from where I sit he has done neither for ages

[redkeith]

21 hours ago, nta786 said:

MANAGER Thomas Tuchel has revealed Saints walked into a Chelsea trap, saying “we expected” the high-press and it was “set out for Timo Werner to deliver”.

“We expected a 4-4-2 and both number sixes to press high."

“So we wanted to pin the defenders with two strikers and find Mason (Mount) in a bit of an open position between the lines."

“We had a bit of a different role for the wing-backs because we anticipated an aggressive 4-4-2 and wanted to have three midfielders against their two midfielders and have an ideal position for Kai (Havertz) and Timo (Werner)."

"That was the idea behind it but, of course, it's not about the idea. It's about how we played, how committed we played, and with what quality we played."

“It was a different mindset. A different attitude. And it was then followed by all the quality."

"Timo was playing in his favourite position, and he loves to play with Mason Mount, Kai Havertz and Mateo Kovacic"

“He has a connection to these players. He loves the double striker position, the half left position."

“It was an opponent where we could imagine we’d find spaces in behind because it was a higher attacking opponent. Everything was set out for him to deliver, honestly."

Tuchel added: “It was a very good performance offensive-wise but also defensive-wise."

“It’s not only a possession game against Southampton, it’s about winning the duels, accepting the physicality."

“There was a good mix in all areas of the pitch, in mentality and commitment. It was very, very good.”

 

It is over a month since the Villa game, and yet we have no answer if a team decides to play 2 up front with a no 10 in the hole. 

This should have been remedied  mid way through the first half at villa, and after Chelsea hit the bar  twice in the first 10 minutes. Drop Romeu in front of the two CBs' and tell Stu and Elyanousi not to give the full backs the freedom of the park ! 

Also, it has been clear all season that Werner and Lukaku struggle against a defence that sits deep, so why play such a high back line ??

Total leadership failure. 

 

 

[Mystic Force]

My thoughts, Romeu has not been the player he was earlier in the season. I am worried he is carrying an injury but a wounded OR is better than any other option for us unfortunately, with OR not able to his job JWP is not free to do his, otherwise it is simply they have are number and by adding additional presence they have neutralised the way we play. Against a good side we need the natural LB for defense, KWP is a good choice at LB only when playing a team who will put the onus on us to attack, as his great runs can carve open a packed defense where as against a good team a more managed left side attack is preferred, ie trying to turn their RB for a cross. Elyanousi looks like he has given up somewhat and simply not working as a cog in the machine.

Now I think that the most important point is that tactics have evolved somewhat since teams dropped having two stickers the two CB were able to cover 1 ST, as those other forward players went looking for "holes" at this point the full backs were free to play more advanced as they did not have to worry about covering of an attack as much. So much so that nearly all the width is coming from the FBs and the traditional winger has basically disappeared. All it takes is now for one player to revert to the second stricker roll and you have effectively taken two players out of the game. If they advance they leave the defense open to a quick attack and if they sit back then there is no wide player with the skill set to unlock the sides. Iceland did this to England in the Euros and I think we will see this increasingly against teams who rely on the FB for their width.

[Chez]

I have to say that a lot of the chances/goals came as a result of our midfield being totally ineffective. No pressure on the ball, being the wrong side, allowing players space in between the lines and of course not keep the ball when we got it. That has been the case a fair bit recently.

Even the best centre backs look frail when exposed to breaking opponents and the number of times our CBs have been faced by an extra attacker in recent games explains why we have conceded so many relatively `easy' goals. I thought Stuart Armstrong was particularly bad on Saturday. Romeu was very poor and JWP ineffective.  Diallo often gets the wrong side. 

If you attack, you will inevitably leave space, but on Saturday we were hardly being caught in transition, we were just caught flat footed and wrong side, time after time. That needs addressing. 

 

 

[david in sweden]

On 10/04/2022 at 13:16, Whitey Grandad said:

The whole focus of the club seems to have changed. They appear to have taken our Premier League status as a given and are pushing other unrelated commercial interests. The main information screens yesterday showed nothing about the game apart from the time and the score. The rest was nothing but adverts. There was quite a bit about women’s football too.

All of it a distraction from the prime purpose of the club.

 

 

Of course our woman's team is the only real success, and half of them are teenagers.   Top of their league (again) they are up for promotion.

[HKsaint]

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Edited 21 April, 2022 by HKsaint
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[HKsaint]

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Edited 21 April, 2022 by HKsaint
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