Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Fabrice29]

13 minutes ago, CheshireSaint said:

If this is a seperate competition, how can they include examples of other 'spying' during the league campaign to back up their case? If these ought to be included, then surely the playoffs can't be considered separately.

They were separate charges and presumably punished separately by the points deduction.

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

They were separate charges and presumably punished separately by the points deduction.

Source?

Pretty sure all the publicly available information stated ONE charge of spying against Boro.

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Good question!

It's a good point! But wasn't the argument made at the time that the fans shouldn't suffer, they didn't choose the owners, they didn't spend the money etc etc. The points deductions were enough.

But it's the same argument here. We didn't chose our owners, we didn't decide to spy and we weren't part of any WhatsApp groups.

[Osvaldorama]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

They were separate charges and presumably punished separately by the points deduction.

Which is ridiculous as it means we’ve been kicked out of the playoff competition because of the photo of an intern with an iPhone. 
 

They can’t have it both ways. Either they’re the same competition or different. Our lawyers should kick off about this 

[skintsaint]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Pretty sure all the publicly available information stated ONE charge of spying against Boro.

[Osvaldorama]

Looking at the regs, it’s not even clear what the definition of “Play-off” is. 
 

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Source?

Pretty sure all the publicly available information stated ONE charge of spying against Boro.

I think the EFL statement confirmed this yesterday. We accepted multiple breaches. 

[sockeye]

Just want this appeal done and dusted so I can mourn properly

[Scummer]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

I think the EFL statement confirmed this yesterday. We accepted multiple breaches. 

It's a bit odd that they added more charges on Sunday but didn't tell anyone, not sure what the point of that was

[VectisSaint]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Source?

Pretty sure all the publicly available information stated ONE charge of spying against Boro.

Apparently these extra charges were brought by the EFL on Sunday, following information provided by Boro. No one seems to have been aware of this at the time, not announced by EFL, or surprisingly by anyone on here. So altogether we faced 4 charges. 

[saintant]

14 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

Yep - we’re in a legal process. They don’t want to accidentally say something that might be misconstrued and used against us. That’s distinctly possible when you realise how incompetent the club is at a senior level.

So much like the stance we adopted before yesterday's hearing then? Yeah, I can see their logic in that.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, tdmickey3 said:

Still nothing on SFC website...

There surely has to be a valid reason (from the club's point of view) why they haven't even put out a holding statement yet? One would hope it's because they think they've got a rabbit to pull out of the hat at the appeal, which will turn the case on it's head (the "they're all at it, and you knew it" bombshell?), but I guess the more realistic reason for no statement is they haven't got a clue what they're doing.... 

[Fabrice29]

7 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Which is ridiculous as it means we’ve been kicked out of the playoff competition because of the photo of an intern with an iPhone. 
 

They can’t have it both ways. Either they’re the same competition or different. Our lawyers should kick off about this 

You honestly need to stop pretending/playing dumb that we haven’t deliberately been trying to gain a sporting advantage and that a sporting punishment isn’t suitable. 

Also he’s not an intern, it doesn’t matter what device he was using and the photo itself isn’t really meaningful either. Doesn’t matter how much you want to play it down.

Edited 10 hours ago by Fabrice29

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Scummer said:

It's a bit odd that they added more charges on Sunday but didn't tell anyone, not sure what the point of that was

Presumably all part of our pre-pack plea agreement.

Not sure why the club bothered with training on Monday when they'd already agreed to be kicked out of the play offs.

 

[sotonjoe]

31 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

I believe the EFL said at some point it was these guys. As I said above, I don’t believe the panel members from yesterday have been announced. I slightly assumed that the Chair would have been chairing the panel yesterday but he could be doing the appeal for all I know.

Gotcha. Cheers. I see these people obviously have some legal pedigree so the reported Talk sport comment where they claimed the original panel were more sporting experts rather  than legal experts wasn't really accurate. 👍

[Midfield_General]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

I think the EFL statement confirmed this yesterday. We accepted multiple breaches. 

Whilst Parsons added in mitigation 'but we're really sorry so let us off your honour, please' 

 

[Mr X]

1 hour ago, O_Lord_Marian said:

Its our year, we're getting reinstated.

Dream on 😜

[MarkSFC]

This is the longest VAR check in history....

[Guided Missile]

I'm actually looking forward to another season in the Championship. Dedicated fans and a real incentive to get automatic promotion. I can see from this thread that the fair-weather fans will go and I'll be sat among dedicated supporters, not cry babies who obviously fail to remember the bad times we have gone through before.

[Saint86]

6 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

We played Boro on the 9th May. At which point Parson's handed the EFL and Boro the noose and put the club's neck through it.

[Chez]

18 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Ive been chatting to my Boro friend and he said something I havent seen elsewhere. He said both clubs are tainted as if Boro win it will always be said that they didnt really win, and only did so by being given the bye. He feels like me none have come out of this well.

If Boro get promoted, then they, especially the board, owner and bank manager, won't give a fuck if it's seen as 'tainted' in some people's eyes. Their balance sheet will come of it very well indeed.

[Toussaint]

23 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Why not? They finished fifth and only got beaten by a team who cheated. It's not like we're giving QPR a go at Wembley.

You’re conflating “rule breach” with “proven decisive sporting advantage.”

If the EFL believe Southampton breached regulations then punish Southampton appropriately. I’ve never argued otherwise.

But the idea that Middlesbrough were somehow robbed of a Wembley place by this is revisionist. They were the better side for large parts of the first half at the Riverside and could easily have been ahead. Across the ties they had every opportunity to progress and didn’t take them.

That’s the key point for me: the alleged spying demonstrably failed to produce any obvious competitive advantage. We didn’t suddenly tactically dismantle them using classified military intelligence. Football happened over 210 minutes and we won. 

So sanction the wrongdoing if wrongdoing occurred, but retrospectively awarding another club a place in the final despite losing the semi-final is a completely different argument and, in my opinion, disproportionate.

 

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

You honestly need to stop pretending/playing dumb that we haven’t deliberately been trying to gain a sporting advantage and that a sporting punishment isn’t suitable. 

 

Im not. 
 

But they can’t treat it as a seperate competition in one instance, then the same league in others. It’s part and parcel of the same league. Otherwise we’ve just been kicked out of a competition for a single breach. 
 

All of this is compltely incoherent. A good lawyer should have easily got us out of this imo. Well - I parsons didn’t go and run his mouth. Twat. 

[LegalEagle]

1 minute ago, sockeye said:

Just want this appeal done and dusted so I can mourn properly

Not going to go like that Sockeye. They’re going to reinstate us later today. The final will be brought forward to 7.30am on Saturday morning. Later this afternoon before the appeal result has been announced Peretz, Charles, THB, Azaz, Scienza and Ross will all have jumped ship and joined Coventry. And Tonda will have been sacked. Bazunu is back in goal, kids are brought in along with Romeu and Lallana and the crowning turd in the pipe is Russell Martin will be back in charge with Nathan Jones as his deputy.

Then you can mourn.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

If Boro get promoted, then they, especially the board, owner and bank manager, won't give a fuck if it's seen as 'tainted' in some people's eyes. Their balance sheet will come of it very well indeed.

On the other hand, when Hull win, we'll have two very fruity games with those Northern Monkeys next season.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

There surely has to be a valid reason (from the club's point of view) why they haven't even put out a holding statement yet? One would hope it's because they think they've got a rabbit to pull out of the hat at the appeal, which will turn the case on it's head (the "they're all at it, and you knew it" bombshell?), but I guess the more realistic reason for no statement is they haven't got a clue what they're doing.... 

Wonder if SFC interviewed Will SAlt and found out who sent him up to Boro. Didn't we have a couple of ex-Boro anaylsts on our books. Imagine if one them had sent him up there and then pre warned Boro security that Will was on his way.

That could be the rabbit, Trousers, but sadly I think your last statement is the truth.

 

[sadoldgit]

28 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You have no basis on which to say that. We were caught spying on their training sessions, it's laughable to try and claim we didn't benefit from it at all. Boro lost to cheaters and if this was the other way around, not one single Saints fan would be claiming we don't deserve to go to Wembley.

I saw the match in which we were totally battered for a great deal of it. What difference does someone make standing around a quarter of a mile away with an iPhone? Even pros are saying it would have made any difference. If it was a big deal don’t you think that the EPL would have the same rule?

[Mr X]

2 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

I'm actually looking forward to another season in the Championship. Dedicated fans and a real incentive to get automatic promotion. I can see from this thread that the fair-weather fans will go and I'll be sat among dedicated supporters, not cry babies who obviously fail to remember the bad times we have gone through before.

We will be lucky to stay in the championship though! I can see all our better players jumping ship and we will be left with Deadwood and struggle to recruit as who wants to come here

[sadoldgit]

6 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Apparently these extra charges were brought by the EFL on Sunday, following information provided by Boro. No one seems to have been aware of this at the time, not announced by EFL, or surprisingly by anyone on here. So altogether we faced 4 charges. 

So we had less time to prepare for them in the hearing?

[trousers]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Probably would have been a lot better off losing to Middlesbrough last week.

Looks that way.... Same crime, little or no indignation from the footballing world... Crack on with next season as if nothing had happened.... Sliding doors and all that...

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

You’re conflating “rule breach” with “proven decisive sporting advantage.”

If the EFL believe Southampton breached regulations then punish Southampton appropriately. I’ve never argued otherwise.

But the idea that Middlesbrough were somehow robbed of a Wembley place by this is revisionist. They were the better side for large parts of the first half at the Riverside and could easily have been ahead. Across the ties they had every opportunity to progress and didn’t take them.

That’s the key point for me: the alleged spying demonstrably failed to produce any obvious competitive advantage. We didn’t suddenly tactically dismantle them using classified military intelligence. Football happened over 210 minutes and we won. 

So sanction the wrongdoing if wrongdoing occurred, but retrospectively awarding another club a place in the final despite losing the semi-final is a completely different argument and, in my opinion, disproportionate.

 

Ah but you've failed to factor in the Gibbo effect.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, sadoldgit said:

I saw the match in which we were totally battered for a great deal of it. What difference does someone make standing around a quarter of a mile away with an iPhone? Even pros are saying it would have made any difference. If it was a big deal don’t you think that the EPL would have the same rule?

why do it. The point is, we willfully, knowingly, and pre-designed our own downfall.

If nothing is to be gained, why have we been (probably) at it since xmas?

[Fabrice29]

5 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

Im not. 
 

But they can’t treat it as a seperate competition in one instance, then the same league in others. It’s part and parcel of the same league. Otherwise we’ve just been kicked out of a competition for a single breach. 
 

All of this is compltely incoherent. A good lawyer should have easily got us out of this imo. Well - I parsons didn’t go and run his mouth. Twat. 

You also need to stop blaming the lawyers.

I don’t really understand your argument about different competitions either. One is a league format so a sporting sanction of points seems reasonable and one is a knock out competition where points are irrelevant so not sure why you’d expect the same punishment necessarily. 

A few days ago I said on here I thought it would be extreme to expel us but the more you read into it the more it feels logical.

Edited 10 hours ago by Fabrice29

[Saint Keef]

We need to go on the offensive and go in with "all guns blazing" and make it very clear that if this expulsion is not reversed and Southampton immediately reinstated, we will sue the EFL for anything north of £55m (£100m?) (£200m?). Yes, we admit we were in the wrong and we admitted those breaking of the rules, we don't deny that, but we argue the penalty issued is completely disproportionate to the "crime" committed. Judging from messages I have received from non-Saints supporting fans, who say this decision is completely WRONG, in a weird way, there has been a complete turnaround here and we are now being seen as "the victims". Lets see how much "bottle" the EFL have really got!!!!   

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I saw the match in which we were totally battered for a great deal of it. What difference does someone make standing around a quarter of a mile away with an iPhone? Even pros are saying it would have made any difference. If it was a big deal don’t you think that the EPL would have the same rule?

Why did we do it then? For a laugh? This argument has to stop as well 🤣 

[Sheaf Saint]

4 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Apparently these extra charges were brought by the EFL on Sunday, following information provided by Boro. No one seems to have been aware of this at the time, not announced by EFL, or surprisingly by anyone on here. So altogether we faced 4 charges. 

That being the case, how can we possibly accept that the timescales here can be legitimately described as 'following due process'? I get that they have the right to expedite their 14-day rule in extreme circumstances, but introducing new, additional charges (on a Sunday) ahead of a hearing 48 hours later is surely not legal?

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

If Boro get promoted, then they, especially the board, owner and bank manager, won't give a fuck if it's seen as 'tainted' in some people's eyes. Their balance sheet will come of it very well indeed.

Basically, if you look at it that way, we have been charged with spying 3x times. Oxford, Ipswich and Boro. The Boro one in isolation has had the potential to impact Boro, fair. But the other two haven't impacted Boro.

The punishment is essentially a £250m fine for us, and a potential £250m reward for Boro. Whilst anyone else implicated is ignored and Hull are dragged through the mire too.

Make that make sense.

[sadoldgit]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

Why did we do it then? For a laugh? This argument has to stop as well 🤣 

God knows. It does not alter what actually happened though. People do things all the time that have no material effect on an outcome.

[Saint_clark]

Adrian Durham: "How can you let a team that has cheated the rules go to Wembley, that just can't happen". 

The irony of that statement following Man City winning the FA cup at Wembley...

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

why do it. The point is, we willfully, knowingly, and pre-designed our own downfall.

If nothing is to be gained, why have we been (probably) at it since xmas?

I'm looking forward to every single team sending all their analysts to Boro's training ground the day before their first home game if they get promoted to the PL.

Maybe they'll invest in a fence before then?

[saintant]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

Basically, if you look at it that way, we have been charged with spying 3x times. Oxford, Ipswich and Boro. The Boro one in isolation has had the potential to impact Boro, fair. But the other two haven't impacted Boro.

The punishment is essentially a £250m fine for us, and a potential £250m reward for Boro. Whilst anyone else implicated is ignored and Hull are dragged through the mire too.

Make that make sense.

Yes but as long as Gibbo is happy everything is fine.

[badgerx16]

Hollywood twist ?

Wrexham striker Josh Windass wants the playoffs rerun with them taking our place.

Edited 10 hours ago by badgerx16

[SaintLondon]

Wait so let me get this straight, people are saying that the 4 points is for the additional spying and the expulsion is for the spying of Boro? That is mental. I hate that we did it and I have nothing but pure anger towards those that organised and executed it but that is not a crime worthy of the punishment. What is a bit petty of me is that I want us reinstated as much to play the game but more so to piss off 'Gibbo'

 

Edited 10 hours ago by SaintLondon
Typo

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Basically, if you look at it that way, we have been charged with spying 3x times. Oxford, Ipswich and Boro. The Boro one in isolation has had the potential to impact Boro, fair. But the other two haven't impacted Boro.

The punishment is essentially a £250m fine for us, and a potential £250m reward for Boro. Whilst anyone else implicated is ignored and Hull are dragged through the mire too.

Make that make sense.

it isnt a £200m fine, there was no guarantee we would win. 

[SaintsLoyal]

’Incredibly William Salt was alleged to have turned up to Playford Road ahead of Southamptons game with Ipswich, pretending to attend a family fun day adjacent to Playford dressed as Mr Blobby

[S-Clarke]

Just now, saintant said:

Yes but as long as Gibbo is happy everything is fine.

The fact they've got the exact outcome they asked for on their website stinks.

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Ah but you've failed to factor in the Gibbo effect.

That has had enormous influence, even with "Saints fans"  being emotionally swept up and self flagellating. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

37 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Because they lost over two games and the cheating had no material effect to the result. It is ridiculous that you can lose but still win. The only reason they lost is down to their shortcomings on the pitch. 

Are you really that dopey. They caught us, that’s why we didn’t spy on them for the second leg, that’s why we didn’t watch the last 3 days of their preparation. It wasn’t a case of Tonda asking the bloke to pop up there and watch a few minutes of training, then come home. The judgment will be based on what effect cheating COULD have given us, not what it did give us. Anything else would be ridiculous, you’d be saying to Middlesbrough “well done for catching the bloke & bringing it to our attention, but because you did so, Southampton didn’t gain an advantage, so we’re not kicking them out”. 

FFS, people need to get a grip.

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

God knows. It does not alter what actually happened though. People do things all the time that have no material effect on an outcome.

God and everyone else with half a brain knows.

[SNSUN]

48 minutes ago, sotonjoe said:

We hired shit spies

Instead of hiring shit spies, we should have hired spies who are mint.

Mint Spies.

That's a 1 hour self-ban from posting for me.