Saints 1 Man Utd 2 - Post Match Meltdown

[Smirking_Saint]

If you add Lallana and Ramirez to attacking options and take out Rodriguez from this season as we knew he would miss a huge chunk of it then its quite different.

 

Mayuka as first go to option of the bench is poor.

 

At times last season we were bringing on Lambert or Osvaldo, plus Ramirez and the first season also had Puncheon.

With no attacking injuries aside from Jay long term, we have Mayuka as first option then either Isgrove or Hesketh.

 

West Ham had Zarate on the bench unused yesterday, Swansea Dyer, Palace Puncheon etc and have Mayuka who has come on in the last 3 or 4 games. Would rather have Carlton Cole or Bobby Zamora.

 

We would have JWP, Jay rod, Long, Tadic, mane and mayuka as the likely forward 3 options as effectively Pelle has no competition. Unfortunately we have JWP and Jay injured with Tadic carrying a knock

[Noodles34]

I was very worried we would get dicked tonight with our two best players out. So we lost, but I think we can go forward on the back of that with a lot of confidence and pick up at least seven points before Chelsea. If that happens then we will still be in touch come January, the key is coming back from these defeats against teams we know we would have beaten three weeks ago. These next three games will define our season.

[GarrettIvo]

Is now the time for everyone to have a little reality check? We sit fifth in the table behind three sides with huge spending power and we have way surpassed any realistic expectations any genuine fan would have had at the start of the season. I appreciate the last three results have been disappointing, but we have competed well against two teams (Man Ure and Arsenal) who are likely to battle it for the top four and we still have a great chance of a top half finish. Granted I only listened to tonight's game on Radio Five but it sounded like we dominated the game and deserved to win, and that is against a side that has spent a ridiculous amount of money this season. Take RVP out of the equation and we win the game. Lets stick with the boys, keep our heads up and look forward to the rest of the season.

 

Hear hear.

[Smirking_Saint]

Perhaps, though I think the angle was tighter for Long's first chance and he was forced to wait as the ball bounced, with two defenders closing down on him. Needless to say, it was a wild lash. The second chance was much less contested.

 

Thought Pelle showed some life tonight after a poor run of form, though again he could have shown more patience with the chance he had early in the second half.

 

We just arent as good going forward as atleast 5 teams this year unfortunately. Its no real surprise. Pellè can be a tad hot and cold but in the whole he is an improvement on last year, and tadic has basically slotted into a lallana shaped hole. Add Jay into that mix and we look ok. Long is just long, full of work but seems to snatch at chances. Doesnt make him poor. Pellè has had the easier of the chances of late, but then he plays through the middle.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Frustrated because they were there for the taking. Jose at fault for the first and Forster for second. Not convinced about Forster at all, terrible for the goal.

 

Long worked so hard but missed a couple of decent chances. Hes got great work rate and spirit , good control and lots of ability, he is just so wasteful in front of goal. I guess if he could finish he wouldn't be playing for us as he's got everything else to play in premiership.

 

My motm was victor, great performance and real maturity to not get booked.

[Yuki]

Clyne displayed his honour tonight.

 

Long meanwhile is no more than an EPL version of Chung Lee.

[Saint Charlie]

We would have JWP, Jay rod, Long, Tadic, mane and mayuka as the likely forward 3 options as effectively Pelle has no competition. Unfortunately we have JWP and Jay injured with Tadic carrying a knock

 

JWP isnt a forward option, he is in the midfield group with Morgan, Wanyama, Cork, Davis etc.

 

We knew Jay woulf miss half or more of the season.

 

Our forward options are Mane, Tadic, Long and Pelle so if three or four of them play each week then it doesnt give a lot from the bench.

 

As you say Tadic obviously has a knock of some kind and Mane needs time out, whilst Pelle cannot surely play 90mins all season?

 

But we literally have nothing else as the others are nowhere near the required standard. We have been one forward light all season and are seeing that now.

[shurlock]

We just arent as good going forward as atleast 5 teams this year unfortunately. Its no real surprise. Pellè can be a tad hot and cold but in the whole he is an improvement on last year, and tadic has basically slotted into a lallana shaped hole. Add Jay into that mix and we look ok. Long is just long, full of work but seems to snatch at chances. Doesnt make him poor. Pellè has had the easier of the chances of late, but then he plays through the middle.

 

Would prefer if the front three/four interchanged more as we did last season - Pelle would sometimes have more joy against the full back, Tadic would have more options if he dropped into the hole (his passing is so much better than his crossing) and Mané/Long played the furthest forward etc.

 

We set up pretty rigidly and our main routes of attack are pretty predictable (down the sides rather than thought the middle) unless one of the CMs is gambling (admittedly they have greater freedom under RK) and the fullbacks are pushed up sufficiently far to allow the two wide players to come inside.

[Smirking_Saint]

JWP isnt a forward option, he is in the midfield group with Morgan, Wanyama, Cork, Davis etc.

 

We knew Jay woulf miss half or more of the season.

 

Our forward options are Mane, Tadic, Long and Pelle so if three or four of them play each week then it doesnt give a lot from the bench.

 

As you say Tadic obviously has a knock of some kind and Mane needs time out, whilst Pelle cannot surely play 90mins all season?

 

But we literally have nothing else as the others are nowhere near the required standard. We have been one forward light all season and are seeing that now.

 

Been saying for ages we are at least a striker light.

 

Worth noting that both Davis and jwp have been employed further forward then the 'midfield two' this year on many occassions.

 

Edit - and what I mean by this is that, just as last year the injuries are taking their toll. We have a strong midfield, but losing 3 CMs means we have to reshape and our CM backups would have been forward line options.

Edited 8 December, 2014 by Smirking_Saint

[Smirking_Saint]

Would prefer if the front three/four interchanged more as we did last season - Pelle would sometimes have more joy against the full back, Tadic would have more options if he dropped into the hole (his passing is so much better than his crossing) and Mané/Long played the furthest forward etc. We set up pretty rigidly and our main routes of attack are pretty predictable unless one of the CMs is gambling (admittedly they have greater freedom under RK) and the fullbacks are pushed up sufficiently far to allow the two wide players to come inside.

 

From what ive seen the main difference between poch's and koemans teams are that koeman allows his CMs more freedom but is more rigid with his frontline and doesnt use the high press as much (he did tonight). He also likes to play at a higher tempo and takes more risks, other than that its pretty similar.

 

Id definately like to see Pellè move a bit more, he was much better tonight, the first time in a long time. Against Villa he was marked out of the game and as he is such a fulcrum of our attaxk it showed, at the time I questioned why he didnt move in deeper or out wide, as for me, if your being so effectively marked out of the gane you need to make the man marker have a decision to make, drifting deep or wide forces the CB into that, as he either needs to pass you on or destroy the shape of a back four.

[simo]

I think what the most disappointing thing about the last 3 games is that we have only really been outplayed the once and have not got what we have deserved maybe we'll get a few points later on in the season we don't earn !?

[croydonsaint]

I keep reading that Koeman and Van Gaal did not shake hands before the game. Is that right? I was sure I saw them shaking hands and then he walked towards his seat and then went back and shook Giggs hand. Did I imagine that?

[trousers]

http://talksport.com/football/everything-st-because-we-lost-rants-southampton-boss-koeman-141208127987

 

Koeman: "Everything is s**t because we lost"

Edited 8 December, 2014 by trousers

[Saint_clark]

Good on him. Doesn't sound happy at all, and it's a far cry from Pochettino telling us how much better we were than the opposition and refusing to criticise the players.

[Baird of the land]

Glad to see Koeman is so unhappy at losing to such a mediocre team.

[DJ_TOAST]

fckin **** result and to top it off I walked into a post while walking home and looking at my phone and smashed my nose...nose bleed everywhere and bump on my nose...and no saints fan stopped to help me ...if u were the saints fan cn*t in polygon who saw me and fcked off then ur a cn*t

[Batman]

will also add, the roadworks in Southampton and just off it (M3)

are utterly horrific. 4 lane motorway quickly going down to 1 lane

 

I wanted to go up london Rd and then down lodge rd to get to the M27. Oh no road works and sheer weight of traffic take me to a 1 lane M3

[simo]

fckin **** result and to top it off I walked into a post while walking home and looking at my phone and smashed my nose...nose bleed everywhere and bump on my nose...and no saints fan stopped to help me ...if u were the saints fan cn*t in polygon who saw me and fcked off then ur a cn*t

 

Sorry I know I shouldn't but....................

[Batman]

Just shows how poor the league is this season when United are 3rd

 

Quite possible the worst United side for nearly 30 years

[St Marco]

Thought we played alright at times. We were better then them and didn't deserve to lose.

But something about the team just isn't right. Maybe we have too many people behind the ball and having only Pelle up front is not helping.

Yoshida and Wanyama had very good games I felt.

Long on the other hand was just awful. He had countless chances and fluffed them badly. That is the difference between a quality player and an average one. If they fell to anyone else I think they would of scored.

 

In the window we really need a good crosser/dribbler to go out on the right wing who can take players on and cause problems for the defences if we cant get Jay back playing. Long is more of a run back and harass the ball type player. Which isn't what we need. We need someone who can get the ball, keep it and then create something with it. Mane can dribble with the ball, he took on the defence when he could. But his end product is very poor. If he can work on it he will come good.

[John Boy Saint]

The one frustration is no matter who the Manager is or is wearing the shirt Saints DNA is constructed to faff about in front of goal 1-2-3-4 touches too many, trying to be clever with flicks to no one, trying walk the ball into the goal.

We have plenty of good players it just baffling, as Ron said "we were not clinical enough".

The first goal was gift wrapped for a predator in front of goal, the second considering how far out the free kick was taken from the fact the RVP had time to ghost in at the back stick when he should have had someone all over him like a rash. That said I don't think the new super bright LED lights are helping as there were a few occasions when the ball was dropping past them and the player it was coming to slightly miss judged the first touch, that free kick looked like it dropped out of the lights.

 

And Mr Friend was a bit crap tonight too, which does not help our cause Man Utd players were a bit physical, yet if we farted within inches of them Friend was on the whistle, the longer this goes on in a game the more the team getting the rub of the green off the ref will just carry on, whereas the opposition being pulled up willy nilly for the same offence then become nervous of getting stuck in, yes we beat ourselves tonight but boy did we get some poor decisions against us........ I bet Mane felt pretty bloody good about putting one of theirs in the air late on.

 

Still every team has a wobble now and again let's hope that ours is short lived.

 

.......... Yes Batman the M3 was indeed a bloody joke tonight: frigging Cone Trolls!!

[Whitey Grandad]

The one frustration is no matter who the Manager is or is wearing the shirt Saints DNA is constructed to faff about in front of goal 1-2-3-4 touches too many, trying to be clever with flicks to no one, trying walk the ball into the goal.

We have plenty of good players it just baffling, as Ron said "we were not clinical enough".

The first goal was gift wrapped for a predator in front of goal, the second considering how far out the free kick was taken from the fact the RVP had time to ghost in at the back stick when he should have had someone all over him like a rash. That said I don't think the new super bright LED lights are helping as there were a few occasions when the ball was dropping past them and the player it was coming to slightly miss judged the first touch, that free kick looked like it dropped out of the lights.

 

And Mr Friend was a bit crap tonight too, which does not help our cause Man Utd players were a bit physical, yet if we farted within inches of them Friend was on the whistle, the longer this goes on in a game the more the team getting the rub of the green off the ref will just carry on, whereas the opposition being pulled up willy nilly for the same offence then become nervous of getting stuck in, yes we beat ourselves tonight but boy did we get some poor decisions against us........ I bet Mane felt pretty bloody good about putting one of theirs in the air late on.

 

Still every team has a wobble now and again let's hope that ours is short lived.

 

.......... Yes Batman the M3 was indeed a bloody joke tonight: frigging Cone Trolls!!

 

All good points, particularly the lights. I could hardly see a bloody thing. The ones round the rim of the roof are ok but the ones lower down are glaringly awful.

[Dig Dig]

Just back now, a few points from me:

 

- we need to be more ruthless when on top in these games. When the opposition has quality players, you have to make chances count

- Mane is clearly lacking confidence and making poor decisions as a result. It would be good to bench him and build him back up again before bringing him back in but we have a severe lack of options at the moment

- Long is another who shouldn't be starting and is definitely more of an impact player. His general touch and hold up play is pretty poor and doesn't fit with our desire to dominate possession. He is a good grafter but an average all round footballer.

- I think Koeman has made a few tactical errors over the last few games. I know changes have been enforced but our overall shape wasn't right and he looked a bit ragged at times

- the last few games have really shown up the squad depth issue once again, we need a couple more players used to playing at a high level as we have a real inability to change and influence things when we go behind

- we can't win without Morgan which needs to be sorted before he inevitably leaves

- on a more positive note, pelle was looking much better tonight and we were ultimately the better of the two teams

[Sour Mash]

Sat in the car

 

Didn't see yoshida do much wrong

Wanyama was very good

Long was good

Clyne was good

 

Mane was atrocious

Forster was not good at all

 

United were crap, 2 shots on target the whole game and we gifted them one

 

The ref seemed horrendous, gave us almost nothing

Pretty fair summation of the night. Very, very frustrating game, Man Utd are one of the few clubs to really have the knack of winding me up (I can't stand Felaini and Rooney), but ultimately plenty of positives to take from the game. With either Alderweireld or Schneiderlin back we'll improve further. I think we'll win at Burnley.

[GarrettIvo]

I keep reading that Koeman and Van Gaal did not shake hands before the game. Is that right? I was sure I saw them shaking hands and then he walked towards his seat and then went back and shook Giggs hand. Did I imagine that?

 

They absolutely shook hands before and after the game. Although the look on Ronald's face after could melt diamond. He was fuming.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

They had RVP we had Mane. Happy Christmas United lots of love Fonte and Forster. 3 points at Burnley please or I am going to start losing a bit of faith in the bright shiny season.

[austsaint]

As far as unlucky defeats go that one was right up there. Jose chose a bad time after 200 games to pull out a slack back pass like that and Forster, despite his many good qualities once again showed a hesitancy which cost the second RVP goal. The continued improvement of Victor is a joy to watch; once again the full backs were good; for all the stick Maya has taken he was very solid tonight and Tadic and Pelle showed improvement after several quiet games. I can understand the frustration with Mane however he also produces several moments of quality which can and probably will win games as the season goes on. Young Hesketh coming on was a surprise - can someone describe what sort of player he is and what he's shown in Hunter's team?

[70's Mike]

I look at it this way

we were a Long header away from a win

also wonder how Harry Reed feels this morning

[LVSaint]

Glad these 'three' are over now. **** results, but look forward to the next string of games to resume normal service against non top six opposition.

[david in sweden]

I keep reading that Koeman and Van Gaal did not shake hands before the game. Is that right? I was sure I saw them shaking hands and then he walked towards his seat and then went back and shook Giggs hand. Did I imagine that?

 

that's correct. He shook hands with three on the MU bench (including Van Gaal), but didn't see Giggs on the end, but then went back and shook hands with him, too.

[david in sweden]

most of you have highlighted all the problems i've saw.

 

Thought we ran the game after 1-1, but how can we ignore RVP and give him a free run at the far post for their 2nd goal. Forster (unfortunately), is weak on ground shots .....numegged twice..

[CB Saint]

Christ, how bad are United?

[Frank's cousin]

We were the better side, but made two errors that were punished.... We could not punish theirs.... But good to see us playbalot better again than we did against Villa or City.... Can't comment on the the Gunners game as did not see any of it, but we see to be heading in a better direction again...despite the key injuries.

 

 

But can someone explain how the Granny ****ger was still on the pitch? He is shaming the England captain role, with his constant F off to the ref - all he ever seemed to be saying whenever in close up ... What example is he setting... And yes he should be setting one... It's normally why players get these honours...because they can control emotions.... I am convinced that had it been one of ours they would have seen red well before Rooney got his over due yellow...

[eddie]

Thought we played actually quite well - stayed up to the early hours out here in central africa to watch. at the end of the day, we played really well up to the final ball - 4/5 times tadic, pelle and mane all tried a little through pass from just in front of mcnair/carrick toward goal, which had it worked would have allowed whoever was on the end of it a clear run of goal. Was a shame they didn't work but the fact we managed to play well up to that final ball was good.

 

No idea what people are saying about just hoofing it up field - was clearly a tactic of Koeman for Bertrand and co to pass to Clyne/Long on left wing because he thought Young was exposed. Clyne didn't press behind Young that much to put crosses in the box....not really sure why not but I felt Clyne didn't do his usual tap on to the corner flag, pace past the left back and then cross in like he's being doing week after week.

 

All in all, a good performance I thought - Forster could have maybe got hands on RVP's second but realistically it was a difficult curling ball. His errors are just shown up a little bit more when we aren't putting them away at the other end.

 

One really good thing I've noticed about this seasons saints is the way we really don't let teams have the ball for a long period of time. I've seen match after match that the lads really hassle people from behind so they are forced to play the ball back to their goal. Thought that the whole team close people down quite fast - OK against city maybe we gave them more space but I feel like the strategy is akin to Chelsea's style of play against arsenal - not letting them have the ball, marking very tight, putting in challenges. Not overly bothered about three losses....I mean we should have 1-4 points from these last three but hey. Beating solid mid-tables and thats where top 8 is won or lost.

Edited 9 December, 2014 by eddie
syntax

[JRM]

I'm looking forward to having a few non televised games, whether theres a curse or not we definitely under perform on sky.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Just back now, a few points from me:

 

- we need to be more ruthless when on top in these games. When the opposition has quality players, you have to make chances count

- Mane is clearly lacking confidence and making poor decisions as a result. It would be good to bench him and build him back up again before bringing him back in but we have a severe lack of options at the moment

- Long is another who shouldn't be starting and is definitely more of an impact player. His general touch and hold up play is pretty poor and doesn't fit with our desire to dominate possession. He is a good grafter but an average all round footballer.

- I think Koeman has made a few tactical errors over the last few games. I know changes have been enforced but our overall shape wasn't right and he looked a bit ragged at times

- the last few games have really shown up the squad depth issue once again, we need a couple more players used to playing at a high level as we have a real inability to change and influence things when we go behind

- we can't win without Morgan which needs to be sorted before he inevitably leaves

- on a more positive note, pelle was looking much better tonight and we were ultimately the better of the two teams

 

Agree with all of this.

 

All we need to be is a bit more clinical and we would have got a number of points out of our last 4 games.

[Coxford_lou]

http://talksport.com/football/everything-st-because-we-lost-rants-southampton-boss-koeman-141208127987

 

Koeman: "Everything is s**t because we lost"

 

Brilliant interview from a losing manager. These players are going to learn a lot from him. As he's always said, the real test in the teams character is after a run of loses.......

[Bucks Saint]

Really missed Morgan's energy everywhere, but for me the big miss was Davis. Understandably he had to play as a DM and did a decent job. Tadic took his role but is carrying a groin strain and is not the same kind of player. Too often we played balls up to Pelle but did not have players running beyond him - so often that is Davis who gets to the knock down etc and plays the next pass.

 

Mayuka may be the next striker who is not injured but he is a waste of a player when he comes on. Utterly bemused that Ron put him on again after Arsenal

[Bucks Saint]

Solent said he was walking about the training ground with a crutch yesterday so it'll be a while I think

 

Solent seemed surprised about that! How come they, and some on here, are not aware of his second recent operation? Will not be back until February at the earliest

[Professor]

With four players out through injury who could have started or come on in midfield (Schneiderlin, Cork, Aldeweireld, JWP) it doesn't look as if squad depth is an issue. There is a limit to how many players you can have for cover who will normally never get a game. The two errors that resulted in last nights goals being let in should never have happened but weren't cause by a lack of squad depth. Personally, I'm not convinced by Mané and would like to see competition for his role. He seems to be competing with Long but they are very different players. Was surprised last night that it was Long who was taken off and not Mané but doubt if that would have changed the outcome. The reality is that chances were made that weren't taken. When JRod and Gallagher are fit to provide more competition for the front places, maybe that will help, but it really does seem we are not a top 4 side.

[hasper57saint]

My main concern before this game was RVN. RK should know he is ManU's only threat at the moment because the £300k per week Granny ****ger is just a self - aggrandisising big mouthed favourite of the Media. Victor beat him time after time yet RVN just ghosted around and then pounced.They had two shots on goal and scored both.We had eleven shots on goal and scored (luckily) once. That's the difference between the teams and RK really ought to wake up to Mayuka. We played a good game but it's goals that count.I'm looking forward to Burnley where I believe RK will have a slightly different approach.

[Dig Dig]

I'm sure Koeman would love to not use Mayuka but he doesn't have much choice at the moment. We need players back so that Mane or Long can be the impact sub where needed.

[There when Franny scored]

When you have Mayuka and Hesketh off the bench to change the game and an off-form Mane stays on for 90 minutes when he looks desperately short on confidence you are left to wonder why we let Ramirez go on loan. He's probably the most divisive player in our recent history, but he has made telling contributions in the past albeit inconsistently. As I understand it he is deemed not to fit into our attacking style of play, but where we are seeming less productive in the final third (due to form, fatigue or other factors) it may be that a change of style later in games together with a change of (effective) personnel could prove fruitful?

 

Even those who are ardent critics of Ramirez would surely rather have him off the bench that Mayuka?

 

Or was it the case that Ramirez wanted a starting place (which seems strange as he hasn't started at Hull either)?

[LostBoys]

I want to accentuate the positives - Wanyama and Davis were excellent

[rooney]

Two mistakes at the back and 2 very good chances missed up front, otherwise we we far the better team. The players will know they made errors and they want to win just as we do. The problem is quality. As Garry Neville said Robin V-P needs only one chance to score but Shane Long needs many more. We have good players and the best we can get but they are not £30M players like V_P etc. and we have to except that. We still are playing good football and are team are enjoyable to watch. Forget the top 4 teams or whatever and let us enjoy the rest of the season and remember those dark days in Uncle George's time.

[saint-crinny]

In the majority of games, i don't think Ramirez is the answer, but against that lot last night, he would have had a field day.

 

Tadic must be carrying a knock as his two through balls in the first half were atrociously overhit - two decently weighted passes and Long would have been in both times.

 

Gutted about last night, but most important now is to try and get the win at Burnley. Make no mistake, after these three defeats, Burnley away is now a really tough game.

[Charlie Wayman]

Effing daylight robbery. To lose in that way to such a c.rap bunch of clueless t.ossers is gut wrenching. Fonte is a right tit and deserves to be dropped. Hesketh, who he? Mayuka? Send him home on a free.

[Charlie Wayman]

I want to accentuate the positives - Wanyama and Davis were excellent

 

 

The were indeed but Ryan Bertrand was my MotM

[Saint Billy]

The main reason we are now losing is that sides have now wised up to the threat of Tadic and Pele. They were an unkown quantity but now their threat has been dealt with we are struggling.

 

Tadic has been almost anonymous which has meant that Pele has been starved of supply.

 

I think the only way to sort this to some extent is to switch it about a bit during the game positionally so as to make it a bit more tricky for the other side.

 

Ronald must buy in Jan as our bench is far far too weak, we have no impact players at all to come on.

[There when Franny scored]

In the majority of games, i don't think Ramirez is the answer, but against that lot last night, he would have had a field day.

 

Tadic must be carrying a knock as his two through balls in the first half were atrociously overhit - two decently weighted passes and Long would have been in both times.

 

Gutted about last night, but most important now is to try and get the win at Burnley. Make no mistake, after these three defeats, Burnley away is now a really tough game.

 

 

Fair point. I don't think I'd have brought him on against City or Arsenal (although that said, still a better option than Mayuka), but Villa away he'd also have been useful. Presumably, Saints can't justify a player on those wages being used so sparingly, but therein lies the problem. The big teams do justify players like that in their squads.