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5 hours ago, Appy said:

So because Pickford is rubbish we have to accept McCarthy being rubbish?

Not at all. I actually don't think he's rubbish.  As has been said later in these posts, the stats show he is an average PL keeper. Yes, there are some better than him (if you've got a spare £30m) but there are lots who are worse.......Forster and Gunn being two of them. Last week wasn't great, but if the defence is having a howler, lets not blame the keeper for all of it. If Forster was so good, why isn't he still at Celtic? Partly because of the wages situation I accept, but they've apparently just spent £4.5m on their new keeper. If they''d offered us £3m for Forster to offset those wages, I reckon we would have bitten their hands off.  And Gunn's last significant effort.........0-9. Not all his fault, but hardly inspiring and a record conceded by a PL keeper in one match I believe. For what we have to spend on a keeper at the moment.......probably a loan at best, find me a keeper better than McCarthy and I'll rest my case. 

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16 hours ago, Saint Keef said:

Not at all. I actually don't think he's rubbish.  As has been said later in these posts, the stats show he is an average PL keeper. Yes, there are some better than him (if you've got a spare £30m) but there are lots who are worse.......Forster and Gunn being two of them. Last week wasn't great, but if the defence is having a howler, lets not blame the keeper for all of it. If Forster was so good, why isn't he still at Celtic? Partly because of the wages situation I accept, but they've apparently just spent £4.5m on their new keeper. If they''d offered us £3m for Forster to offset those wages, I reckon we would have bitten their hands off.  And Gunn's last significant effort.........0-9. Not all his fault, but hardly inspiring and a record conceded by a PL keeper in one match I believe. For what we have to spend on a keeper at the moment.......probably a loan at best, find me a keeper better than McCarthy and I'll rest my case.                 

What starting PL keepers are worse than McCarthy? Who would swap?

I haven't seen much of Leeds or West Brom's keepers.  But can't think of any other clubs who'd swap. 

Definitely better first choice - Arsenal, Villa, City, Utd, Spurs, Chelsea, Leicester, Newcastle, West Ham, Wolves, Burnley, Sheff Utd.

I'd say Pickford while bad is still a long way ahead, Ryan at  Brighton is far better IMO. Guita looks alright nothing special. 

So  average prem keeper? No. He's an average championship keeper  who got a lucky break, bought as back up with a club expecting Forster to be no 1 for  years. 

Of all those clubs, how many spent £30m to get a good keeper? Three? People's standards are just horrifically low here because we've had poor keepers for so long. Bar a year or so of Forster, the best we've had in the last 15 years is Boruc, who was error prone. Before that we're back to Niemi.

Davis while a good championship keeper, was  always out of his depth at this level. McCarthy is not as good as Davis was. 

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I'd like to see both Gunn and Fraser get a league game soon. I know Ralph and the coaches see them in training, but a live match would be useful. Any sharpness Fraser accrued is dissipating while sitting on the bench. We've got only 2 games left before transfer window, so let's see what each can offer. Rather than endless McCarthy repeats. 

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This is one of the most backwards threads on this forum. Utterly embarrassing some of the stuff on here.

Mccarthy, whilst not perfect, is streets ahead of Forster and Gunn simply because for a start, he does most of the basic things right.

And you’ll have to be mentally unstable to suggest Davis was a better GK than McCarthy.

i don’t know what it is about him, but he keeps us in so many games but rarely gets the credit for it. That city performance would have been masturbated over for seasons if it was Forster lolloping about in goal. His distribution isn’t the best and he’s prone to the odd howler - but none more so than the likes of de Gea, Lloris etc - in fact, they’ve probably made more in recent seasons.

Gunn doesn’t save anything but the fanboys all love his Instagram looks so therefore, he must be a quality GK.

Forster makes 2 good saves and 8 routine ones in a cup final for Celtic and all of sudden, he’s ‘back in form’. If anyone would look at the stats, he barely saved a thing when the opposition had a shot. I can’t remember the last time I looked, but I’m pretty sure it was lower than 1.2 shots on targets to goals conceded.

but yeah, he’s back in form. He was never ‘in form’, ever.
 

Forster has and always will be, save a couple of performances, utter dog toffee. He gives the defence the jitters, is as commanding as 16 year old nerdy prefect in the school corridors and simply cannot do the basics right.

As for Angus, I’d rather have his dad in goal than him. 

Edited by Crab Lungs
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He can't pass a ball, he constantly gifts the ball back to the opposition if he has to pass it more than about 20 yards as shown tonight. Which means we can't recycle possession through him and surrender possession very easily for no real reason. 

People standing out on the wings completely free and he can't pass a ball 30 yards under no pressure. 

Now if he was some sort of worldly saving keeper winning points on his own you'd let him off, but he isn't, he's a decent but not exceptional shot stopper, he's bang average at crosses and I don't think he is particularly very commanding or organising at the back. 

His positioning is also piss poor, I wonder in part because he's being asked to be a sweeper keeper but clearly isn't, so has no idea where he is supposed to be and its impacting his game, or whether generally he is just crap at positioning. He nearly got caught out tonight by a Westwood freekick because he was oddly positioned and later on Vydra lobbed massively when McCarthy was in no mans land, because again he clearly has no clue where he is supposed to be. 

If Forster is anything near back to his best, and that is a big IF, then he is very clearly a better keeper because in his best form he is levels above what McCarthy is. 

I think people have become so used to inept Goalkeeping over the last 3 years that McCarthy comes in does ok, has some good games and is then massively over rated.

Really we need a new GK, but that aint happening but I wouldn't be surprised to see Forster get back in if his head is right just simply because McCarthy offers very little apart from shot stopping and recently he's not been great at that. 

Edited by tajjuk
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47 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

He can't pass a ball, he constantly gifts the ball back to the opposition if he has to pass it more than about 20 yards as shown tonight. Which means we can't recycle possession through him and surrender possession very easily for no real reason. 

People standing out on the wings completely free and he can't pass a ball 30 yards under no pressure. 

Now if he was some sort of worldly saving keeper winning points on his own you'd let him off, but he isn't, he's a decent but not exceptional shot stopper, he's bang average at crosses and I don't think he is particularly very commanding or organising at the back. 

His positioning is also piss poor, I wonder in part because he's being asked to be a sweeper keeper but clearly isn't, so has no idea where he is supposed to be and its impacting his game, or whether generally he is just crap at positioning. He nearly got caught out tonight by a Westwood freekick because he was oddly positioned and later on Vydra lobbed massively when McCarthy was in no mans land, because again he clearly has no clue where he is supposed to be. 

If Forster is anything near back to his best, and that is a big IF, then he is very clearly a better keeper because in his best form he is levels above what McCarthy is. 

I think people have become so used to inept Goalkeeping over the last 3 years that McCarthy comes in does ok, has some good games and is then massively over rated.

Really we need a new GK, but that aint happening but I wouldn't be surprised to see Forster get back in if his head is right just simply because McCarthy offers very little apart from shot stopping and recently he's not been great at that. 

Sorry can’t agree with your statement that Forster was “very clearly a better keeper” when he was near his best form. He was blessed with  being our keeper in a period when Saints had the best defence I can remember us having, which we certainly don’t have the luxury of now. That was a lot to do with his “best form” from what I remember, and don’t recall him being great in terms of passing ability either.

McCarthy’s far from perfect but at least he’s fairly competent most of the time at keeping the ball out of our net which puts him above our other 2 keepers at present. He made a crucial save tonight for example low down to his right which got me thinking “glad Forster’s not in goal otherwise that would be 1 all”.
 

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8 hours ago, Saint Pete said:

Sorry can’t agree with your statement that Forster was “very clearly a better keeper” when he was near his best form. He was blessed with  being our keeper in a period when Saints had the best defence I can remember us having, which we certainly don’t have the luxury of now. That was a lot to do with his “best form” from what I remember, and don’t recall him being great in terms of passing ability either.

McCarthy’s far from perfect but at least he’s fairly competent most of the time at keeping the ball out of our net which puts him above our other 2 keepers at present. He made a crucial save tonight for example low down to his right which got me thinking “glad Forster’s not in goal otherwise that would be 1 all”.
 

The fact you think a regulation save at his near post that he was literally standing 2 feet away from was 'crucial' highlights the problem.

If we are praising our keepers for saving shots from 20 yards that are straight and they are standing near where the ball went, then that highlights the problem. That is a save he should make, its regulation. 

As for the better team argument, that makes no real sense because GK's who do badly for good teams get highlighted even more, see De Gea and Kepa, whereas average keepers that get peppered and thus are seen to make a lot of saves get over rated, see someone like Marshall for Cardiff. 

Forster was a clearly a better keeper, seen by the fact he got 6 England caps playing for us, at a time when England decent GK options (like Hart in good form), whereas McCarthy has got 1 England cap, and hasn't been near since there not being many good GK options for England at the moment and the no.1 probably being the worst England No. 1 in a generation. 

Also Forster can at least pass a ball 30 yards to one of his teammates. 

For a modern good keeper you need to -

1. Be able to pass and distribute quickly and accurately to recycle position and start transitions.

2. Get quickly out of the goal to sweep up.

3. Save shots without pushing them back into play.

4. Produce some saves where you expect the strikers to score. 

5. Command and organise your back line. 

6. Confidently come for crosses. 

7. Not make glaring errors that lead to goals.

McCarthy can't do 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7.

He's decent on 3.

And occasionally he has above average game, maybe 1-2 times a season, but most of the time if there is a good chance they score pretty easily against him, as happened against Spurs. 

He's basically like a worse version of Fabianski or Dubravka, they like him are a bit flappy on crosses, make errors that give easy goals and don't have good distribution. But crucially those two keepers regularly make top level saves that stop their teams conceding goals they would be expected to concede and they do this a lot, so it makes up for their other errors and lack of all round game.

But McCarthy doesn't.

So really what good is he? 

His supposed best attribute is shot stopping and he was 13th for that out of PL keepers last year, so not even in the top 10, for his supposed main strength, and he is bad to awful at everything else. 

IIRC he was joint 3rd for mistakes leading to goals. 

 

Edited by tajjuk
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I don’t get the McCarthy bashing. We all know his limitations - that’s why he was bought as a no 2. But he’s better than the two keepers we bought as no 1 - that’s been proven given he’s displaced both. I can accept an argument about finding a better keeper - as clearly there are out there (but we don’t have any money so that’s out). But in reality we have much bigger issues to concentrate on than an average prem keeper who is a bit uncomfortable with his feet. Btw he played well yesterday - I can’t believe anyone watched that and thought ‘dodgy keeper’

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Hi tajjuk, do you train goalkeepers, or were you one at a decent level? Otherwise I suggest that a lot of your criticisms of McCarthy are completely wide of the mark.

On your 1-7 points I only really agree with you on 1 & 2. Saints are clearly trying to coach that into him, however it's rather late in a keepers career to be doing this. He's played probably 20 years without having been expected to do much of the more modern sweeper keeper style football.

We clearly bought Gunn because of his footballing ability but unfortunately he hasn't yet shown the form we expected with the gloves. Therefore we decided to try and add this dimension to McCarthy's game instead. He's clearly trying to improve on it but unless we get a new keeper then you'll have to accept his limitations in this area. 

Points 3, 4 and 5 are incorrect. He's fine on those, not outstanding but fine. Point 6, I believe he was up there on crosses claimed last season compared to other Prem keepers.

Point 7 is pretty much redundant because all keepers do this, even the best ones. Lloris is a world cup winner but still got tackled on the goal line by Ings last season. De Gea is one of the best in the world but makes mistakes. Unless you're expecting Saints to sign Oblak your're going to be disappointed in that respect. 

The technicalities of keeping are vast. Can you tell me about McCarthy's set position or whether his footwork allows him to push off the correct leg? How about his split step or head position when he dives or the angle of his body when the ball is coming across? 

As I said earlier on the thread he's not a world beater but he's a decent keeper who does a job in this league. 

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He's a solid 6 or 7 out of ten keeper at this level. I think he actually won our player of the season a couple of years ago.

Pretty much the last position we need to invest in, especially as we have two reasonable (and expensive) back ups, whic isn't true for a good number of outfield positions.

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15 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Hi tajjuk, do you train goalkeepers, or were you one at a decent level? Otherwise I suggest that a lot of your criticisms of McCarthy are completely wide of the mark.

On your 1-7 points I only really agree with you on 1 & 2. Saints are clearly trying to coach that into him, however it's rather late in a keepers career to be doing this. He's played probably 20 years without having been expected to do much of the more modern sweeper keeper style football.

We clearly bought Gunn because of his footballing ability but unfortunately he hasn't yet shown the form we expected with the gloves. Therefore we decided to try and add this dimension to McCarthy's game instead. He's clearly trying to improve on it but unless we get a new keeper then you'll have to accept his limitations in this area. 

Points 3, 4 and 5 are incorrect. He's fine on those, not outstanding but fine. Point 6, I believe he was up there on crosses claimed last season compared to other Prem keepers.

Point 7 is pretty much redundant because all keepers do this, even the best ones. Lloris is a world cup winner but still got tackled on the goal line by Ings last season. De Gea is one of the best in the world but makes mistakes. Unless you're expecting Saints to sign Oblak your're going to be disappointed in that respect. 

The technicalities of keeping are vast. Can you tell me about McCarthy's set position or whether his footwork allows him to push off the correct leg? How about his split step or head position when he dives or the angle of his body when the ball is coming across? 

As I said earlier on the thread he's not a world beater but he's a decent keeper who does a job in this league. 

I certainly don't train goalies, but I can see that McCarthy made basic mistakes that led to goals in a number of games last season. Off the top of my head, Man City (a), Arsenal (a), West Ham (a), Newcastle (a), Arsenal (h). That's five goals in 28 matches. Of course the list doesn't include the bad mistakes that he made that he got away with such as Sheff U at home.  If you watch the Man City (h) game, where he played well he still managed to nearly present Man City with an equalizer with 5 minutes to go (with an identical error to those at Arsenal and Man City away in the last few moments) - just watch the highlights.    

He just doesn't fill me with confidence. Better than Kelvin ? Yes, but both are number 2s and we are screaming out for a solid Premiership goalie. Forster probably isn't it, and for the moment in the absence of decent competition her deserves to remain as our number 1, but if the mistakes and few game changing saves remains the same we may need to consider replacing with Forster. 

BTW - I thought the 2nd half save last night was good (probably game changing), but his domination of his 6 yard box was awful all night and we got away with it on this occasion. I'm not sure we'll get away with it all season. 

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11 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

I certainly don't train goalies, but I can see that McCarthy made basic mistakes that led to goals in a number of games last season. Off the top of my head, Man City (a), Arsenal (a), West Ham (a), Newcastle (a), Arsenal (h). That's five goals in 28 matches. Of course the list doesn't include the bad mistakes that he made that he got away with such as Sheff U at home.  If you watch the Man City (h) game, where he played well he still managed to nearly present Man City with an equalizer with 5 minutes to go (with an identical error to those at Arsenal and Man City away in the last few moments) - just watch the highlights.    

He just doesn't fill me with confidence. Better than Kelvin ? Yes, but both are number 2s and we are screaming out for a solid Premiership goalie. Forster probably isn't it, and for the moment in the absence of decent competition her deserves to remain as our number 1, but if the mistakes and few game changing saves remains the same we may need to consider replacing with Forster. 

BTW - I thought the 2nd half save last night was good (probably game changing), but his domination of his 6 yard box was awful all night and we got away with it on this occasion. I'm not sure we'll get away with it all season. 

I'm not denying he makes mistakes, all keepers do. Obviously the best ones make less but they generally cost far more money than we could ever pay.

Unfortunately we're not in a position to jettison a keeper because they let in a few soft goals, or are in bad form like Chelsea have done with Kepa. He's a good case in point for keepers because Chelsea changed his set position to the point where he's now a mess. It reminds me of when England tried tinkering with Jimmy Anderson's bowling technique after he first burst on the scene. Just because it's unorthodox doesn't mean it won't work. Kepa did this weird thing where he throws his arms backwards during his set position and Chelsea tried to eliminate it but it's actually made him worse. 

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Clean sheet and he's good again huh?

Despite dong exactly what he did against Son, being terrified to come and get the ball when it was easily his. Burnley scored and he got lucky offside was given. 

It'll cost us in a lot of games. 

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16 minutes ago, adriansfc said:

Clean sheet and he's good again huh?

Despite dong exactly what he did against Son, being terrified to come and get the ball when it was easily his. Burnley scored and he got lucky offside was given. 

It'll cost us in a lot of games. 

Depends what you mean by good? He's always been good, just not amazing or world class. 

To all the people bashing him I'd like to hear your suggestions about better keepers that we'd realistically be able to sign? 

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24 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

We need the Gunn that was a stand out player for Norwich.

Suppose new league and our defence shot his confidence

He was good for us at when he came in at the back end of 18/19. But his confidence looked shot at the start of last season, even before the 9-0.

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43 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

We need the Gunn that was a stand out player for Norwich.

Suppose new league and our defence shot his confidence

That and the fact he's up against better strikers who find the corner more regularly and know how to beat a keeper.

I didn't see much of him for Norwich, but by all accounts he was good. Maybe he made mistakes there too but they were less likely to be punished by Championship strikers. 

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8 hours ago, The Cat said:

Hi tajjuk, do you train goalkeepers, or were you one at a decent level? Otherwise I suggest that a lot of your criticisms of McCarthy are completely wide of the mark.

On your 1-7 points I only really agree with you on 1 & 2. Saints are clearly trying to coach that into him, however it's rather late in a keepers career to be doing this. He's played probably 20 years without having been expected to do much of the more modern sweeper keeper style football.

We clearly bought Gunn because of his footballing ability but unfortunately he hasn't yet shown the form we expected with the gloves. Therefore we decided to try and add this dimension to McCarthy's game instead. He's clearly trying to improve on it but unless we get a new keeper then you'll have to accept his limitations in this area. 

Points 3, 4 and 5 are incorrect. He's fine on those, not outstanding but fine. Point 6, I believe he was up there on crosses claimed last season compared to other Prem keepers.

Point 7 is pretty much redundant because all keepers do this, even the best ones. Lloris is a world cup winner but still got tackled on the goal line by Ings last season. De Gea is one of the best in the world but makes mistakes. Unless you're expecting Saints to sign Oblak your're going to be disappointed in that respect. 

The technicalities of keeping are vast. Can you tell me about McCarthy's set position or whether his footwork allows him to push off the correct leg? How about his split step or head position when he dives or the angle of his body when the ball is coming across? 

As I said earlier on the thread he's not a world beater but he's a decent keeper who does a job in this league. 

No he's fine on 3 which I said and I said he occasionally has a good game where he stops a lot that comes his way beyond what you'd expect i.e Man City but that is rare and other mid level keepers in the league like I said Fabianski and Dubrovka do it far often.

He is not fine on crosses, he is a flapper who tends to punch to often and often comes for things and doesn't get, which is not going to inspire confidence of his defenders.

And he is very far from commanding, it's telling watching him in these behind closed doors games you can clearly hear other keepers but barely hear or see McCarthy, he is generally all round timid as a goalkeeper, it covers all facets of his game and is why he gets beaten most of the time in 1v1s, he doesn't make it hard for strikers as others have pointed out. 

Even a low confidence Forster would have saved some of those against Son just because of his size and because he comes at the attacker more.

And of course mistakes is relevant, he makes more of them than many other keepers, the stats back that up and was lucky last year that more weren't punished because he had a big set of howlers. Why do you think De Gea is getting so many criticism? Because he is making far too many mistakes and should have been dropped, he is nowhere near the best in the world anymore and hasn't been for a good 18 months. 

He's not a decent keeper, he's bang average when he's in his best form, which he isn't right now.  

A lampost would 'do a job' and probably wouldn't give the opposition the ball back so often.

As Adrian says he gets a clean sheet and yet again gets a free pass, our outfield players seem to get far more stick for their performances despite McCarthy being poor most of the time, his all round game is trash and his only saving grace is shot stopping, and he's not doing that. 

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3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

No he's fine on 3 which I said and I said he occasionally has a good game where he stops a lot that comes his way beyond what you'd expect i.e Man City but that is rare and other mid level keepers in the league like I said Fabianski and Dubrovka do it far often.

He is not fine on crosses, he is a flapper who tends to punch to often and often comes for things and doesn't get, which is not going to inspire confidence of his defenders.

And he is very far from commanding, it's telling watching him in these behind closed doors games you can clearly hear other keepers but barely hear or see McCarthy, he is generally all round timid as a goalkeeper, it covers all facets of his game and is why he gets beaten most of the time in 1v1s, he doesn't make it hard for strikers as others have pointed out. 

Even a low confidence Forster would have saved some of those against Son just because of his size and because he comes at the attacker more.

And of course mistakes is relevant, he makes more of them than many other keepers, the stats back that up and was lucky last year that more weren't punished because he had a big set of howlers. Why do you think De Gea is getting so many criticism? Because he is making far too many mistakes and should have been dropped, he is nowhere near the best in the world anymore and hasn't been for a good 18 months. 

He's not a decent keeper, he's bang average when he's in his best form, which he isn't right now.  

A lampost would 'do a job' and probably wouldn't give the opposition the ball back so often.

As Adrian says he gets a clean sheet and yet again gets a free pass, our outfield players seem to get far more stick for their performances despite McCarthy being poor most of the time, his all round game is trash and his only saving grace is shot stopping, and he's not doing that. 

The more you type, which I know you love to do, the more I realise you don’t know what you’re on about and have probably never kicked a ball in your life 

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We've got three not great keepers. That's the reality of it. All three are capable of having a great game, but those are generally few and far between.

McCarthy probably is the most consistent of the three, but after cm this is arguably the position we need to strengthen the most in our side.

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16 hours ago, tajjuk said:

No he's fine on 3 which I said and I said he occasionally has a good game where he stops a lot that comes his way beyond what you'd expect i.e Man City but that is rare and other mid level keepers in the league like I said Fabianski and Dubrovka do it far often.

He is not fine on crosses, he is a flapper who tends to punch to often and often comes for things and doesn't get, which is not going to inspire confidence of his defenders.

And he is very far from commanding, it's telling watching him in these behind closed doors games you can clearly hear other keepers but barely hear or see McCarthy, he is generally all round timid as a goalkeeper, it covers all facets of his game and is why he gets beaten most of the time in 1v1s, he doesn't make it hard for strikers as others have pointed out. 

Even a low confidence Forster would have saved some of those against Son just because of his size and because he comes at the attacker more.

And of course mistakes is relevant, he makes more of them than many other keepers, the stats back that up and was lucky last year that more weren't punished because he had a big set of howlers. Why do you think De Gea is getting so many criticism? Because he is making far too many mistakes and should have been dropped, he is nowhere near the best in the world anymore and hasn't been for a good 18 months. 

He's not a decent keeper, he's bang average when he's in his best form, which he isn't right now.  

A lampost would 'do a job' and probably wouldn't give the opposition the ball back so often.

As Adrian says he gets a clean sheet and yet again gets a free pass, our outfield players seem to get far more stick for their performances despite McCarthy being poor most of the time, his all round game is trash and his only saving grace is shot stopping, and he's not doing that. 

Thanks for taking the time to explain your rationale. I'm in agreement with much of what you have written and think it is a decent summary. I recognise others have different opinions on this - rating goalies isn't an exact science, but your arguments make sense to me, although I don't see any simple solution to the problem.

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4 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Just saw this on the BBC....lol

 

image.png.5ec8e00892b1ce7e106648e0c7945a91.png

Arguably as bad a call as that guy who wanted Scotland to call up Antti Niemi...  at least he picked a top keeper

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