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Man Utd 9-0 Saints - Match Thread

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Shroppie

Shroppie

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

According to the Sun it was only to decide the colour of the card.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/13935592/man-utd-southampton-var-mike-dean/

If that's correct (It is the Sun) then it argues that VAR were not even questioning the penalty, despite the minimal contact which was initiated by Martial hanging his foot out as he dived. If that's the case it's a joke - an instant whitewash. How can it be that the video has been watched by dozens of experts who nearly all agree that there is doubt, but VAR don't even review it with the ref? Is sounds as though they froze it at the point if contact, presumably deeming any contact to be a penalty, to assess where the ball was at that instant and judge whether there was an attempt to play it. 

That is utterly flawed. There is contact between players all the time without it being a foul, and without motion, it's impossible to judge whether the contact was significant, affected the player or was deliberate.

We know Bednarek wasn't trying to play the ball: he was pulling out and trying to avoid a tackle or contact. But no still frame can be a measure of whether the contact was part of a motion to play the ball or not.

To me, it smacks of a pre-determined decision to back the ref and justify it with a carefully chosen still frame. That simply isn't how VAR should work.

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

If that's correct (It is the Sun) then it argues that VAR were not even questioning the penalty, despite the minimal contact which was initiated by Martial hanging his foot out as he dived. If that's the case it's a joke - an instant whitewash. How can it be that the video has been watched by dozens of experts who nearly all agree that there is doubt, but VAR don't even review it with the ref? Is sounds as though they froze it at the point if contact, presumably deeming any contact to be a penalty, to assess where the ball was at that instant and judge whether there was an attempt to play it. 

That is utterly flawed. There is contact between players all the time without it being a foul, and without motion, it's impossible to judge whether the contact was significant, affected the player or was deliberate.

We know Bednarek wasn't trying to play the ball: he was pulling out and trying to avoid a tackle or contact. But no still frame can be a measure of whether the contact was part of a motion to play the ball or not.

To me, it smacks of a pre-determined decision to back the ref and justify it with a carefully chosen still frame. That simply isn't how VAR should work.

Every single thread about VAR always ends up with the same call, that it’s only horrendous errors that are overruled and that there should be some sort of cricket style “umpires call”. That’s what happened here, VAR decided it wasn’t a clear and obvious error, so didn’t ask him the review the decision. It doesn’t mean VAR didn’t think it wasn’t  a pen, it’s that he didn’t think it was a clear and obvious error. Had Dean not given it , I doubt he’d have told him to review it either.
 

The fuck up is entirely Mike Dean’s, not VAR, had he not given it and waited to see if VAR thought it a clear and obvious error, he went the other way. I suspect at 6-0 most referees would have turned a blind eye, but that’s Dean for you. He likes to “see” things mere mortals miss. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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saintstowin

saintstowin

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

No, the intersection of all three lines is at pitch level.

I wonder if they mistook the Man Utd player's foot (Fred I think) for part of Che. The yellow line seems to indicate that's a possibility, bizarre as that might be. Anyway you look at it there's incompetence. Frustrated with so much about the last two games but VAR and offside might be the worst. 

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

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Posted
41 minutes ago, saintstowin said:

I wonder if they mistook the Man Utd player's foot (Fred I think) for part of Che. The yellow line seems to indicate that's a possibility, bizarre as that might be. Anyway you look at it there's incompetence. Frustrated with so much about the last two games but VAR and offside might be the worst. 

It’s a three dimensional scene projected onto a flat surface. The lines are supposed to show the three axes but there is of course an error with the accuracy of their alignment. The operator can move them from one point on one player and compare them to another. There has to be at least 10 to 20cm margin of error yet the decision is taken as definitive.

And all this is viewed from an obtuse angle. Only VAR thought it might be offside at the time. Against Villa the assistant had raised his flag and you could perhaps understand VAR not overruling him. Last night the assistant didn’t raise his flag yet VAR overruled him again.

One law for the rich...

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Saint Keef

Saint Keef

Posted
Posted

There's not really much to smile about being a Saints fan lately, but earlier on today I read on the BBC sports page, words to the effect that Man Utd had "re-discovered their mojo" by thrashing Southampton 9-0. 

I smiled (nore out of sympathy for the inane item really) because frankly, one of the richest clubs in Europe (if not the richest) should be thrashing 10......and subsequently 9 men.......already in a makeshift side, missing so many first choice players (Vesty, Romeo, Diallo, KWP, Walcott etc) , with debutantes and kids playing, and a bench made up of players most have never heard of,  especially when you also have your attackers diving for penalties and the referee and VAR going out of their way to help you. 

To be honest, a league 1 team could possibly have beaten us last night faced with the same scenario, but hey, we're the BBC and we love Man U.

Wankers!

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saint lard

saint lard

Posted
Posted

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

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The Cat

The Cat

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, saint lard said:

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

TalkSport is shite, not sure why any same person would listen or engage with their content. It's probably where Mike Dean will end up when he finally retires. 

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niceandfriendly

niceandfriendly

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, wadesmith said:

We can waffle about sleeves, stuck monitors, ‘falling out of love with the game’ (rarely gets said when we win btw),red card betting syndicates, dodgy refs.....but it’s all irrelevant..we were shit.

It's not irrelevant though. All those things can be true simultaneously.

We were shite, I don't see many people denying that. It's also true that VAR is a farce at the moment and we've been royally screwed in recent weeks by some shocking decisions using the technology. It's also true that Mike Dean and most refs in the Prem are atrocious and massively, massively biased towards the big clubs.

The sleeves, well ffs are you happy with sleeves being called offside? Wouldn't matter if the decision was going against us or against Crawley Town, that's pathetic and causing many to fall out of love with the game. 

And speak for yourself about not saying it when we win. There've been numerous occasions this season where we've benefited from a poor decision and it annoys me. Nobody wants to win via a dodgy VAR call.

Just because we played shit let's not try and pretend there aren't massive issues with football at the moment.

Edited by niceandfriendly
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Pedantic Pete

Pedantic Pete

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

According to the Sun it was only to decide the colour of the card.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/13935592/man-utd-southampton-var-mike-dean/

I haven't read this but I thought VAR was there to check clear and obvious errors not for refs to use to make decisions? So what was his original decision?- or are we entering a new era of the ref "popping" over to the monitor before every decision he has to make?

 

 

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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Pedantic Pete said:

I haven't read this but I thought VAR was there to check clear and obvious errors not for refs to use to make decisions? So what was his original decision?- or are we entering a new era of the ref "popping" over to the monitor before every decision he has to make?

 

 

You're correct, but it hasn't worked. Personally I'm all for scrapping the current model but operating a rugby style system for checking key decisions to get the correct one, and for the ref to be mic'd up for full transparency. It works in rugby and could work in football. 

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qwertyell

qwertyell

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, saint lard said:

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

Can't say I listen to that shite, but are they not reasonable questions to ask? (Aside from the weird fixation with white knighting Big Sam and Steve Bruce.)

I mean, isn't it standard practice for teams to train for various scenarios where they're a man down? How the fuck have we managed to lose TWICE 9-0? What kind of clown show are they putting on at Staplewood?

Has anyone else in the entire football league managed to lose 9-0 even once in the time we've absolutely, humiliatingly, pathetically, unprofessionally capitulated twice?

It's insane to me that people are just trying to shrug it off as one of those things instead of asking serious questions of the manager, squad and hierarchy that has presided over this nonsense TWICE.

Any other club would be getting hammered and ridiculed - and rightly so. 

Edited by qwertyell
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Sarnia Cherie

Sarnia Cherie

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Every single thread about VAR always ends up with the same call, that it’s only horrendous errors that are overruled and that there should be some sort of cricket style “umpires call”. That’s what happened here, VAR decided it wasn’t a clear and obvious error, so didn’t ask him the review the decision. It doesn’t mean VAR didn’t think it wasn’t  a pen, it’s that he didn’t think it was a clear and obvious error. Had Dean not given it , I doubt he’d have told him to review it either.
 

The fuck up is entirely Mike Dean’s, not VAR, had he not given it and waited to see if VAR thought it a clear and obvious error, he went the other way. I suspect at 6-0 most referees would have turned a blind eye, but that’s Dean for you. He likes to “see” things mere mortals miss. 

Dean was bloody delighted to be given the opportunity to give Man U a penalty and brandish a 2nd red card for us. This waste of space should be nowhere near refereeing for the professional league. The FA should step in when a referee keeps on making the wrong decisions. I know some on here say we are mid-table, so why worry but just because we aren't in the drop zone doesn't make Dean's mistakes feel any better for me. 

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pedantic Pete said:

I haven't read this but I thought VAR was there to check clear and obvious errors not for refs to use to make decisions? So what was his original decision?- or are we entering a new era of the ref "popping" over to the monitor before every decision he has to make?

 

 

He blew for a penalty, probably before Martial hit the ground. The issue apparently was what colour card it should be. Every commentator thought that going to the monitor would mean the penalty being rescinded.

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted

If you listen to Totalsaints podcast (if you dont you are missing a good thing) latest episode it was interesting to hear Simon Peach saying that when Dean upheld the penalty and gave the red card all the journos roared with laughter, as they were expecting the decision to be overturned. He's never heard such an incident before. 

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, OldNick said:

If you listen to Totalsaints podcast (if you dont you are missing a good thing) latest episode it was interesting to hear Simon Peach saying that when Dean upheld the penalty and gave the red card all the journos roared with laughter, as they were expecting the decision to be overturned. He's never heard such an incident before. 

It’s unusual to get 100% agreement amongst the commentators and media about an incident but without exception everybody agrees that it was a dive and should never have been a penalty. Is there anyone who thinks otherwise?

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Captain Jack

Captain Jack

Posted
Posted

Just to put a smile on your face, remember that although we hold the dubious record of heaviest premier league defeat - twice - let's not forget that we also hold fastest premier league goal and fastest hat trick! Clutching at straws I know, but we do have some things to cherish!

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S-Clarke

S-Clarke

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, saint lard said:

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

Look at in with Context.

If Big Sam or Bruce had lost 9-0, that would probably be after they've given their fans 9 months of suffering from shit football, no progression and crappy park the bus tactics.

On the other hand, we have thrown in two 9-0's, but we have actually been better than most teams in the league between those two 9-0's.

We're a bit like Leeds, it's a high risk, high reward approach. I'd just like to see us actually thrash a team though as our approach should allow for it.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Captain Jack said:

Just to put a smile on your face, remember that although we hold the dubious record of heaviest premier league defeat - twice - let's not forget that we also hold fastest premier league goal and fastest hat trick! Clutching at straws I know, but we do have some things to cherish!

And Bednarek is the first player to score an own goal, concede a penalty and get sent off in the same match.

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Captain Jack

Captain Jack

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LaptopSaint said:

If you could choose between winning the Cup in the next three years, or beating any premier league team anywhere 10-0 - which would it be?

Yeah, I know it's the Cup. But 10-0 would be sweet, and shut them all up 👊

 

I think I would go for the 10 nil tbh! We would have both records then. Seems a long while ago we got 8 vs Sunderland.

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Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd

Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, OldNick said:

If you listen to Totalsaints podcast (if you dont you are missing a good thing) latest episode it was interesting to hear Simon Peach saying that when Dean upheld the penalty and gave the red card all the journos roared with laughter, as they were expecting the decision to be overturned. He's never heard such an incident before. 

I heard that Maguire said 'Oh come on' to Dean when he gave the penalty. 

 

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david in sweden

david in sweden

Posted
Posted
On 02/02/2021 at 21:31, Whitey Grandad said:

But if we do win this will be talked about for years, and gentlemen in England now a-bed shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks that watched with us upon this glorious day. 

Mmmm....nice prose methinks, but better left for another day with a better result, mi Lord.

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Badger

Badger

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

I heard that Maguire said 'Oh come on' to Dean when he gave the penalty. 

 

Possibly true, possibly not. 
 

May not have helped the situation though as given the ego driven twat Dean is his response was probably “ I gave as a penalty, it is a penalty and just to prove it I’m gonna send the cunt off as well...”. 

 

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Jimmy_D

Jimmy_D

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, LaptopSaint said:

If you could choose between winning the Cup in the next three years, or beating any premier league team anywhere 10-0 - which would it be?

Yeah, I know it's the Cup. But 10-0 would be sweet, and shut them all up 👊

 

Could I have the 10-0 against Portsmouth in the cup instead?

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Badger

Badger

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, saint lard said:

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

First two points here appear as sour grapes.

Third point though has some merit to it. Even accepting there were other factors the other night heavily influencing the eventual result (injuries, inexperienced players etc, and the Cunt Dean effect) it is alarming how we seem to collapse under pressure even defending a 1 or 2 goal lead is often beyond us.

Not looking to blame Ralph for the other nights collapse,as it’s been this way for some time, but our squad does seem mentally fragile. 

Further observation is that we seem incapable of Plan B, park the bus, and frustrate the opposition. 

Edited by Badger
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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, saint lard said:

😤 “If Big Sam or Bruce lost 9-0 twice, people would want them sacked.”

🤦‍♂️ “Hasenhüttl loses 9-0 two seasons in a row & he’s the hipsters favourite.”

🟥 “Do all teams who have a man sent off early on lose 9-0?!”

@talkSPORTDrive blasts the reaction to #SaintsFC losing 9-0.
 

🤔

How come they missed out the "Do all teams that lose 9-0 go on achieve top 6 form in the ensuing 12 months?" question...? 

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Pedantic Pete

Pedantic Pete

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

He blew for a penalty, probably before Martial hit the ground. The issue apparently was what colour card it should be. Every commentator thought that going to the monitor would mean the penalty being rescinded.

But that's what I mean, he should have made a decision- red or yellow- then VAR checks it and says "you got that right"- "or wrong". Not go to see what the card colour should be.

If he ended up at the monitor, surely it means that Mason has said- "that's a clear and obvious error".. So perhaps he said- "you got that wrong- you should have sent him off" 

 

 

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

But that's what I mean, he should have made a decision- red or yellow- then VAR checks it and says "you got that right"- "or wrong". Not go to see what the card colour should be.

If he ended up at the monitor, surely it means that Mason has said- "that's a clear and obvious error".. So perhaps he said- "you got that wrong- you should have sent him off" 

 

 

All of it a big balls up.

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david in sweden

david in sweden

Posted
Posted
On 03/02/2021 at 13:15, Whitey Grandad said:

No, the intersection of all three lines is at pitch level.

This may be the difference between Maguire's hand and Che Adams' ..but there are two United players behind Adams

and it looks as if  one of them  ..has rather large feet that are even nearer the goal than Ché 's hand.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, david in sweden said:

This may be the difference between Maguire's hand and Che Adams' ..but there are two United players behind Adams

and it looks as if  one of them  ..has rather large feet that are even nearer the goal than Ché 's hand.

Yes, it shows the impossibility of judging positions in three dimensions from an oblique projection onto a two dimensional surface. To be accurate you would need a camera at touchline level looking across the pitch at right angles to the sideline and level with the second to last defender. But then your view would be blocked by the assistant referee standing where he should be.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I think if ever there was an advert for a winter break, it’s this (not that there is room for one this year with Covid)

The problem is setting the date. Sod’s Law dictates that we would have three weeks of glorious sunshine during the break followed by two months of big freeze.

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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The problem is setting the date. Sod’s Law dictates that we would have three weeks of glorious sunshine during the break followed by two months of big freeze.

I’d have the New Year’s Day fixtures and then a 3 week to one month break. Three weeks of glorious sunshine would be unusual for January and would still be accompanied by the kind of cold weather which causes so many muscle injuries.

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