Man Utd 9-0 Saints - Match Thread

[DT]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Could be. I just think that he was shown nothing on the monitor to make him change his mind.

At least we will be in good company with Arsenal appealing. You'd hope if theirs is rescinded, ours will be too. (But big club etc)

[DT]

Just now, beatlesaint said:

Name a more reliable source please, just so I know for future reference 

Carl Anka

[Nolan]

1 minute ago, DT said:

Just two of those days...

Have to say it makes you wonder about the soft underbelly we have and inability to change formation or tactics to suit scenarios. There are other managers that might have switched game plan a little, given the circumstances. I love Ralph and his style, but it does sometimes seem a bit all or nothing. Last night it was nine nothing.

I never understand this fallacy.

 

The tactical flexibility of Ralph Hasenhuttl’s Southampton: (thefalse9.com)

[beatlesaint]

1 minute ago, DT said:

Carl Anka

A journalist based in Manchester 

cheers 🙄

[DT]

1 minute ago, beatlesaint said:

A journalist based in Manchester 

cheers 🙄

Sorry, didn't realise location had a bearing on accuracy (clue: it doesn't)

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, Shroppie said:

In the cold light of day, I’ll attempt some rational answers.

Do I blame Ralph? Emphatically no. He might have tweaked the team a bit but basically he put out the best he could. Two Academy players given their big chance. Ramsey made a decent go of it. More on Jankewitz to follow.

Some will blame the owners and lack of investment. Is that realistic? In the current situation there's no money anywhere. Yes, I'd have liked two quality FBs. But with Bertrand and KWP firm first choices we struggled to get loans in as they'd want game time, which we can't guarantee. Buying players to challenge at FB was never happening.

Then who was to blame? I’m putting Jankewitz top of the list. He’s a professional football player who acted in a reckless way and destroyed the team’s confidence and the game plan in one moment. You could see the shock on other players’ faces and he got little sympathy leaving.

Tactics? No. I’m sure Ralph planned to play our usual pressing game, take the game to MU, push our wing backs up and keep theirs pinned back. He never got a chance. We hadn’t even settled into the game when Jankewitz blew it. A key part of our play is the central ball out to the DMs who can then bring the others in. Once a man short there, we couldn’t get out. And we rely on the DMs pressing, harrying and winning balls in midfield. JWP couldn’t do that alone, so Armstrong, Djenepo, Ings and Adams all found themselves forced back. It then became backs to the wall with a lot of chasing of a team with all the time to be patient and make us run. And we were tired. No chance of rotation just 72 hours after the last game. United made four changes with ridiculous quality left in the bench.

I’m not going to analyse every player as I thought the ones left on the pitch worked hard, but with belief totally shot. There was plenty of frustrated anger too.

Officials? Dean was absolutely disgraceful. Jankewitz deserved red. No argument. But he gave a string of one-sided decisions on fouls. He gave a pen for a foul outside the box which VAR did, amazingly, correct (much to Savage’s anger) I don’t think I’m imagining it when I say he was almost deferential to the MU players whilst being to opposite to us. The Che offside goal was nowhere near offside and only VAR can be blamed for that. What were they looking at? The end of Che’s long-sleeved shirt? No idea. That would have made a difference, not to the final result, but to lifting spirits. I’m sure that at 1-4 we wouldn’t have gone on to concede 9. Then Martial seemed very close to offside for his goal and we didn’t even pause for a check. No careful manipulation of lines for him.

But the key incident that turned the game from a bad defeat to a disaster was obviously the Bednarek penalty. Dean couldn’t wait to give it, VAR was too weak to overturn it, although of course we still have the “clear and obvious error” which I assume swayed them. This interpretation is so subjective: depending on the team involved, VAR can search for ages for something to call clear and obvious, or quickly sweep it aside. Often there’s a refs union that thinks it’s good to back each other up. I’m sure if Dean hadn’t given it, VAR would have quickly agreed. And we don’t know what was said when he was called to the screen, which only seemed to show one freeze frame. Was it “Don’t think that’s a foul - take a look” or “if you give that maybe you have to send him off” Either way, once VAR failed to do its job and bottled it, there’s no way the arrogant twat objectively reviews it. And delights in flourishing the red. That finished us off: without that it’s 6-0. Not good, but I’d have taken it.

This rule about not attempting to play the ball is a perfect example if how Laws are being tweaked (offside and handball are others, but life is too short) without careful consideration of the exact wording to avoid vagueness and misinterpretation. There needs to be a clear inclusion of there being INTENT to foul the player without trying to get the ball. Bednarek’s contact (if at all) was after Martial started falling, he was trying to pull out and there was absolutely no intent to commit a cynical foul to stop a goal.

Ralph has picked the team up before and he’ll do it again. I hope I never see Jankewitz again.

Rant over. Blue line. Move on.

Good post mate.

The team basically stopped giving a shit after the bednarek red card - Armstrong laughed in Dean's face after he booked him for having the ball in the wrong spot for kick off (which in itself was ridiculous).

I'm sure we all feel like they just gave up last night, that they didn't do enough to be professional and keep the score down. For my part, as soon as the first red card happened i had a sinking feeling, then at 1-0 and 2-0 i thought the whole affair had shades of the Leicester game, especially with the attitude the players were portraying. Almost like, "well this one has gone against us" / "ten men vs 12" etc.

In a similar way, once we went behind against Villa and Arsenal in recent weeks, the players heads dropped a bit and you got the feeling that they'd almost had enough and just felt that things were too stacked against them. And to be fair to the players, we have very small squad riddled by injuries, have played consistently all the best teams in the league in recent fixtures (United and Arsenal twice), and have basically been bent over by the officials in multiple games. All that lumped on top of lockdown Britain where frankly they must just be at least as jaded as the rest of us.

I feel like this is the low point in the season and that perhaps we needed something like this to happen. All we can do is wait for the Newcastle side and see what Saints team turns up. The danger ofc is that confidence / suspensions / injuries continue to take their toll and we struggle to pick up wins. If that happens for any significant period of time then we'll start dropping down the league and things could snowball in to us getting dragged into a relegation scrap (although i consider that unlikely).

The whole situation lately (finances/injuries/form) has highlighted the precarious position of the club generally and in the short to mid term. Hopefully the fans realise just how well the team has performed since the Leicester 0-9 and where we could be otherwise!

On the Ralph front. I feel for the man. He could easily go to a club with the means to at least support his ambitions. But saints can barely sustain a fit matchday squad of suitable calibre. We're also clearly so financially skint that we had to loan out 2 academy players and Shane long just to get in a midfielder that doesn't appear to have been a primary target. The recent period at the club will undoubtedly knock him back (granted he recovered superbly last time and was certainly happy enough to extend his contract) - but the last thing we need is Ralph of key players seeing saints as a club with no real future. Precarious times for the club. Will we look back in a few years time at a successful rebuild by Ralph? Or are we about to witness a period of financial trouble, losing our manager and best players, and a drop in quality and league status?

Edited 3 February, 2021 by Saint86

[John Boy Saint]

41 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You can’t blame Mike Dean for the offside goal. That decision was made hundreds of miles away. Nobody on the pitch thought it was offside, not even the well-rehearsed Manchester Utd back four.

Everything else though...

The VAR referee apparently doesn't have any influence on the offsides, the final decision lays with the VAR assistant referee (thats not to say the VAR Ref doesn't resist leaning over and giving his tuppence worth). 

[Saint-Reece]

7 minutes ago, DT said:

Sorry, didn't realise location had a bearing on accuracy (clue: it doesn't)

Considering he covers Man Utd now and hasn't covered us since last season, it does. You just want to cherrypick to suit your doom and gloom narrative.

[Convict Colony]

I feel VAR is used in micro detail to try and find a reason why a goal for a smaller team can be disallowed v a big team.

When the roles are reversed unless is 50/50 (like the pen) they seem to just go yeah thats ok and not show any replay.

Seems who you are is more important than equality in officiating.

Oh yeah Lee Mason and Mike Dean are cunts still

[beatlesaint]

12 minutes ago, DT said:

Sorry, didn't realise location had a bearing on accuracy (clue: it doesn't)

He doesn’t even cover the club - clue: that does matter

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Shroppie said:

In the cold light of day, I’ll attempt some rational answers.

Do I blame Ralph? Emphatically no. He might have tweaked the team a bit but basically he put out the best he could. Two Academy players given their big chance. Ramsey made a decent go of it. More on Jankewitz to follow.

Some will blame the owners and lack of investment. Is that realistic? In the current situation there's no money anywhere. Yes, I'd have liked two quality FBs. But with Bertrand and KWP firm first choices we struggled to get loans in as they'd want game time, which we can't guarantee. Buying players to challenge at FB was never happening.

Then who was to blame? I’m putting Jankewitz top of the list. He’s a professional football player who acted in a reckless way and destroyed the team’s confidence and the game plan in one moment. You could see the shock on other players’ faces and he got little sympathy leaving.

Tactics? No. I’m sure Ralph planned to play our usual pressing game, take the game to MU, push our wing backs up and keep theirs pinned back. He never got a chance. We hadn’t even settled into the game when Jankewitz blew it. A key part of our play is the central ball out to the DMs who can then bring the others in. Once a man short there, we couldn’t get out. And we rely on the DMs pressing, harrying and winning balls in midfield. JWP couldn’t do that alone, so Armstrong, Djenepo, Ings and Adams all found themselves forced back. It then became backs to the wall with a lot of chasing of a team with all the time to be patient and make us run. And we were tired. No chance of rotation just 72 hours after the last game. United made four changes with ridiculous quality left in the bench.

I’m not going to analyse every player as I thought the ones left on the pitch worked hard, but with belief totally shot. There was plenty of frustrated anger too.

Officials? Dean was absolutely disgraceful. Jankewitz deserved red. No argument. But he gave a string of one-sided decisions on fouls. He gave a pen for a foul outside the box which VAR did, amazingly, correct (much to Savage’s anger) I don’t think I’m imagining it when I say he was almost deferential to the MU players whilst being to opposite to us. The Che offside goal was nowhere near offside and only VAR can be blamed for that. What were they looking at? The end of Che’s long-sleeved shirt? No idea. That would have made a difference, not to the final result, but to lifting spirits. I’m sure that at 1-4 we wouldn’t have gone on to concede 9. Then Martial seemed very close to offside for his goal and we didn’t even pause for a check. No careful manipulation of lines for him.

But the key incident that turned the game from a bad defeat to a disaster was obviously the Bednarek penalty. Dean couldn’t wait to give it, VAR was too weak to overturn it, although of course we still have the “clear and obvious error” which I assume swayed them. This interpretation is so subjective: depending on the team involved, VAR can search for ages for something to call clear and obvious, or quickly sweep it aside. Often there’s a refs union that thinks it’s good to back each other up. I’m sure if Dean hadn’t given it, VAR would have quickly agreed. And we don’t know what was said when he was called to the screen, which only seemed to show one freeze frame. Was it “Don’t think that’s a foul - take a look” or “if you give that maybe you have to send him off” Either way, once VAR failed to do its job and bottled it, there’s no way the arrogant twat objectively reviews it. And delights in flourishing the red. That finished us off: without that it’s 6-0. Not good, but I’d have taken it.

This rule about not attempting to play the ball is a perfect example if how Laws are being tweaked (offside and handball are others, but life is too short) without careful consideration of the exact wording to avoid vagueness and misinterpretation. There needs to be a clear inclusion of there being INTENT to foul the player without trying to get the ball. Bednarek’s contact (if at all) was after Martial started falling, he was trying to pull out and there was absolutely no intent to commit a cynical foul to stop a goal.

Ralph has picked the team up before and he’ll do it again. I hope I never see Jankewitz again.

Rant over. Blue line. Move on.

Good post, a rational view after a haunting evening.

The context is certainly different to that of the Leicester one, I feel that's why our views are a little more muted than after that game. We were dealt a poor hand all evening, nothing went our way, no 50/50's. Zero.

The referee single handily destroyed some of our young players. Ramsey, Tchaphat. They'll do well to come back from this one and play at this level after that. Cheers Dean you absolute cockwomble.

I thought Ramsay was doing ok up until 15 mins as well! But he stood no chance and it's true that Utd kept targeting his side.

I appreciated the heart showed by Armstrong, JWP and Moussa - they kept going. Moussa, whilst he didn't offer much quality, still worked his arse off in testing circumstances. He's a likeable character, just needs to start having more impact in an attacking sense.

The other saving grace is our start to the season, we're not in danger of being sucked into any trouble. Let's just re-group and have a decent end to the season. I still think 40-50 points will be a decent return for us, bottom half of mid-table.

What happens in the summer is anyone's guess. But let's just feel fortunate that we can relax (as fans) a little bit for this season.

[nta786]

19 minutes ago, DT said:

Sorry, didn't realise location had a bearing on accuracy (clue: it doesn't)

yeah tbf I am more willing to believe Adam Blackmore over Carl

[Charlie Wayman]

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

Edited 3 February, 2021 by Charlie Wayman

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, Shroppie said:

But the key incident that turned the game from a bad defeat to a disaster was obviously the Bednarek penalty. Dean couldn’t wait to give it, VAR was too weak to overturn it, although of course we still have the “clear and obvious error” which I assume swayed them. This interpretation is so subjective: depending on the team involved, VAR can search for ages for something to call clear and obvious, or quickly sweep it aside. Often there’s a refs union that thinks it’s good to back each other up. I’m sure if Dean hadn’t given it, VAR would have quickly agreed. And we don’t know what was said when he was called to the screen, which only seemed to show one freeze frame. Was it “Don’t think that’s a foul - take a look” or “if you give that maybe you have to send him off” Either way, once VAR failed to do its job and bottled it, there’s no way the arrogant twat objectively reviews it. And delights in flourishing the red. That finished us off: without that it’s 6-0. Not good, but I’d have taken it.

This is a very key point and my main problem with 'VAR', in that there isn't really a problem with VAR as in the technology itself, but instead of it currently being used to make the RIGHT decisions more often, it is currently being used to support Refs and often back up their bad decisions.

It needs taking out of the hands of the referees union and it needs powers to probably over rule refs and says no you were wrong there, change your decision, plus it needs some proper clarification on the offside rule where benefit of the doubt is given to the attacker because currently the technology of drawing line on often the wrong pixelated freeze frame is not accurate nor good for the game. If they have to draw line and the lines are pretty much interacting with each other then they have to say onside and give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker because they simply cannot be that accurate.

Currently you are having decisions that instead of people working out is that a good and right decision, it's lets find any possible way we can to prove this ref made the right decision, hence the incidents we have suffered from the last few days.

2 bad offside calls where clearly our players are level but they draw these lines and take the freeze frames to squeeze the player being offside (which has happened a lot this season, the Mane one at Everton is another example).

And two penalties that were two failures by the on field official that VAR then just confirmed. 

Also if we'd scored a goal, which we did and made it 4-1, we are not conceding 9 IMO not even 6, I don't reckon.

If that pen had not been given and we hadn't gone to 9 but Martial had been correctly booked for diving, we wouldn't have conceded 9 either. 

Both decisions will massively impact the confidence and cohesion of a team already losing and down to 10 men, those terrible decisions will have been a mortal blow to our players and taken all the fight out of them, coupled with pretty much every other decision going against them anyway.  I've played in amateur level games like that, where the luck goes against you and then the Ref seems hell bent on basically making you lose, you feel hopeless.

Let's also remember these guys had just come from a game where they thoroughly outplayed Villa, and had poor decisions take away the game from them, only for it then to happen again.

I struggle to think of any team that has that many shocking decisions go against them across two games back to back, if this stuff 'evens itself out' over the course of a season then we are due some massive luck between now and the end of the season. 

[M271]

I thought that previously it was seen that a penalty and a yellow card was sufficient for denying a goal scoring opportunity not a red card? And as for slightly brushing the leg of an attacker who hangs out a leg and goes down too easily, it's farcical.

[Charlie Wayman]

3 hours ago, qwertyell said:

Losing 9-0 to Leicester was a freak result.

Losing 9-0 again within 18 months is symptomatic of a club with some serious, deep set issues. 

Lots of teams end up playing for prolonged periods with 10 men. None of them completely implode and lose 9-0. TWICE.

Everyone needs to take a hard look at themselves. The manager being unable or unwilling to adapt his tactical approach to the unexpected challenges a game throws up has been a consistent theme of Hasenhuttl's tenure. Normally, it's merely a frustrating trend as the team robotically sleepwalks to a draw or narrow defeat without ever threatening to change course. But twice now it's led to a humiliating disaster.

Yes, it's not easy to play with one man less. But every side other than us seems able to find a way to hunker down, keep the wheels on as best they can, and try and get away from the game with some dignity intact. Some even sneak a result. We couldn't even muster a shot against Arsenal's 10 men. Do you think the same would've happened if the roles had been reversed.

I forget who it was against - maybe Fulham (0-0) - where the manager said afterwards that he was happy with the point because if we'd conceded first we would have no chance to come back. No chance! Game over! That set the alarm bells ringing for me. Are our tactics so rigid and dependant on everything playing out predictably that we've basically got "no chance" if the match situation requires a rethink?

It's a mad result. Twice. Under the same manager. Same regime. Same squad. Same coaches. Players coming through the same system.

Something is seriously wrong beneath the surface of this club.

Excellent post. Absolutely you are 100% spot on.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, M271 said:

I thought that previously it was seen that a penalty and a yellow card was sufficient for denying a goal scoring opportunity not a red card? And as for slightly brushing the leg of an attacker who hangs out a leg and goes down too easily, it's farcical.

It’s because of the ruling that the offender has to make a genuine attempt for the ball in order not to be sent off. Making a genuine attempt to get out of the way doesn’t count. This obviously wasn’t fully thought through.

[Killers Knee]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s because of the ruling that the offender has to make a genuine attempt for the ball in order not to be sent off. Making a genuine attempt to get out of the way doesn’t count. This obviously wasn’t fully thought through.

So we just need to train on dribbling into the box, brushing against a defender and taking a dive.  The benefits out-weigh scoring a goal from open play.

[Sheaf Saint]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s because of the ruling that the offender has to make a genuine attempt for the ball in order not to be sent off. Making a genuine attempt to get out of the way doesn’t count. This obviously wasn’t fully thought through.

Exactly. They have taken the wording of the laws far too literally, rather than acknowledge that the scenario didn't actually fit with the reason the law was introduced. Just as they did with the handball against Villa. 

[maysie]

18 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

And who would you replace him with nobby?

[Singapore Saint]

Don't put too much stock into what happened last night. It was a freak result.

One of the commentators said Man Utd's big win against Saints wouldn't make up for their shock loss to Sheffield Utd as far as the title race was concerned. In other words, look at the big picture. And the big picture where Saints are concerned is we're doing pretty well this season.

If you thought Jankewitz's youthful over-exuberance was disastrous, recall that Germany's Michael Ballack got an unnecessary second yellow card in the semi-final of the 2002 World Cup which cost him his place in the final and Germany the title as they couldn't overcome the loss of their midfield general, eventually losing 2-0 to Brazil. Hopefully Jankewitz will benefit from his steep learning curve and repay Saints with many years of excellent service.

These things happen and unfortunately lighting does strike twice.

Edited 3 February, 2021 by Singapore Saint

[OldNick]

The offside thing is baffling. When we played Villa we were told that it was offside if it hit something that you score with, but last night his fingers were offside and as far as Im aware you cant score with these

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, OldNick said:

The offside thing is baffling. When we played Villa we were told that it was offside if it hit something that you score with, but last night his fingers were offside and as far as Im aware you cant score with these

They thought that it was more than just his fingers but they’re the only people who even thought that it might be offside. VAR was looking for a reason to disallow it. Nobody on the Man Utd side thought that it was offside.

[OldNick]

As for Mike Dean he is a complete prat but there is something I notice nobody has picked up on, he gave only 3 minutes injury time there should have been at least 5 or 6. Imagine that going on for another 3 or 4 minutes. So thanks for that crumb Mr Dean

[Totton Saint]

I am speechless

[Nolan]

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

[eurosaint]

As per the Villa game, ALL of the ex-players commenting on TV were perplexed about the VAR decisions and considered them to be largely unfair !

Two ex Utd players (Ferdinand & Dublin) both said that these incidents are detracting from the spectacle of football as a whole !

I've suggested before that ex players should be involved in the VAR room (adding some perspective to the process) and I stick with that, it's certainly worth a go as right now there's more discussion about borderline technicalities than anything else...

Ps. Anyone know if there's a good plastic surgeon available to remove the smirk from Mike Dean's face 🤤?

[nta786]

20 minutes ago, OldNick said:

As for Mike Dean he is a complete prat but there is something I notice nobody has picked up on, he gave only 3 minutes injury time there should have been at least 5 or 6. Imagine that going on for another 3 or 4 minutes. So thanks for that crumb Mr Dean

 

This comes to mind

[kenneth_kenobi]

11 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

But the ManUre guy's boot next to his hand is playing him on!!

[madge]

47 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

An inexcusable disgrace. Mr Semmens has some very serious decisions to make this week. The club are in a mess under his watch.

Eight PL games without a win, four defeats in a row and now this humiliation. Most managers would have been ousted long ago. Best to call time on Ralph Hasenhüttl who all too often has flattered to deceive.

Sorry mate but your are are deluded.. who else is going to get a better tune of if this squad. We’ve generally been really good over the last year and only a disastrous run of injuries has knocked us back!! I agree with the comments about Semmens.. 

[S-Clarke]

8 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

As per the Villa game, ALL of the ex-players commenting on TV were perplexed about the VAR decisions and considered them to be largely unfair !

Two ex Utd players (Ferdinand & Dublin) both said that these incidents are detracting from the spectacle of football as a whole !

I've suggested before that ex players should be involved in the VAR room (adding some perspective to the process) and I stick with that, it's certainly worth a go as right now there's more discussion about borderline technicalities than anything else...

Ps. Anyone know if there's a good plastic surgeon available to remove the smirk from Mike Dean's face 🤤?

Ex players is an interesting idea. I think whoever is controlling var needs to be away from the referees, a team external to the referee committee. 

What you have at the moment is a mates club and they're all looking after each other. A game is basically refereed twice, by the same people. You don't need 'referees' running VAR, you need neutral controllers of it who have a view of the game as a whole.

[Shroppie]

13 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

I saw that too. The rest of his body is well behind the line.

[Shroppie]

3 minutes ago, kenneth_kenobi said:

But the ManUre guy's boot next to his hand is playing him on!!

No question. Clearly onside.

[Wrensup]

13 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

They are. 
also notice the Man U gold/orange boot intersecting the line. 
 

 

They don’t even try to hide there incompetence or maybe even bias. 

[Born In The 80s]

13 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

You're totally correct. I switched off after they disallowed this. They are literally changing rules (sleeve/arm/part of body) to suit the narrative that they want to create. It's the clearest sign of corruption i've seen in quite some time. Let's face it: 9-0 is a great story for the league and the ref did everything he could to ensure it happened.

I honestly don't think I've ever been less enthusiastic about football. It's so boring analysing refereeing decisions after every single game. I suppose the only good thing VAR has shown is how truly bent this league is. When using technology, there is nothing to hide behind. 

[Graffito]

To those saying Saints can’t defend deep, we did it against Man City last season and against Liverpool this season.

Saints have also shown they can keep possession of the ball successfully, something else that wasn’t evident last night.

The common denominator in the two 9 nil defeats seems to be an early sending off.

Ralph talks all the time about synchronisation, high press and above all, automatism. Ralph might argue that the team can play different formations but they look like tweaks to a highly structured and synchronised system. Take a player out and the whole approach seems to fail. No team can keep up a high energy press for 90 minutes. With 10 players, you can barely do it at all and Saints didn’t attempt it last night. The triggers are there but the players can’t respond. The highly organised system ends in disarray. It’s almost like the players have become automatons and can’t think of themselves when circumstances change and they need to be pragmatic.

[Le Timmier]

13 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

We had two actual wingbacks and sent them out on loan. Madness really. 

We would still have lost but not by as much, and also we would have still lost even if Weird Al hadn't got sent off too. 

We had two actual substandard wingbacks who were sent on loan as they aren't good enough. You can't seriously be suggesting that if Valery had played instead of Ramsey it would have made a significance difference?

If it hadn't been for the "Mike Dean Show" in the last few minutes the match may well have ended 6-0, probably a fair reflection of the evenings events following the GBH committed in the 2nd minute. 

[nta786]

Yep and the stills above don’t even show how the incorrect frame was being used as the ball is blurred as to when it left the free kick takers feet.

My fear is it gets brushed over because we were losing ‘4-0’ anyway but that’s not the principle and it definitely had an effect on us mentally.

I hope this game is a watershed for the way VAR is used or something because it has definitely made the headlines.

The quote from Steve Coppell and for any of the butterfly theorists come to mind after Pool destroyed Palace “the first was offside and the second was a foul, and if they hadn’t got those then they wouldn’t have got the other seven!”

Each moment in isolation has huge implications

[eelpie]

Interestingly, rampant  ManU committed 10 fouls with just one booking. Saints committed just 6 fouls with five bookings. 

Does this tell us anything about Mike Dean?

[Saint-Reece]

1 minute ago, eelpie said:

Interestingly, rampant  ManU committed 10 fouls with just one booking. Saints committed just 6 fouls with five bookings. 

Does this tell us anything about Mike Dean?

I know this answer! It's that he is a cunt!  

[Sheaf Saint]

13 minutes ago, nta786 said:

Yep and the stills above don’t even show how the incorrect frame was being used as the ball is blurred as to when it left the free kick takers feet.

My fear is it gets brushed over because we were losing ‘4-0’ anyway but that’s not the principle and it definitely had an effect on us mentally.

I hope this game is a watershed for the way VAR is used or something because it has definitely made the headlines.

The quote from Steve Coppell and for any of the butterfly theorists come to mind after Pool destroyed Palace “the first was offside and the second was a foul, and if they hadn’t got those then they wouldn’t have got the other seven!”

Each moment in isolation has huge implications

Absolutely this.

If the goal stands, then it's 4-1 and suddenly we get a bit of belief and Utd realise they have some defending to do to stop us from clawing our way back into it. They don't then go and get a 5th and 6th in quick succession, and we don't end the game with 9 men. 

That incorrect decision was what turned it into a 9-0 game, which up until that point it clearly wasn't.

[Dusic]

Obviously not nice to lose 9-0 but this feels totally different to the Leicester game. Then we were a poor team. Now we are just in a poor moment and had a game where pretty much everything that could go wrong did.

No blame on Ralph, he was hamstrung in terms of what he could do.

We were always going to struggle even with 11 due to the injury situation and Utd targetted Ramsay who clearly isn't up to this level.

Once the red happened it was obvious it would be a very tough night, and as soon as the first goal went in you kind of feared the worst.

Officiating was awful, and that certainly impacted the fact it ended 9-0 instead of maybe 5-1 or 6-1, after which the game would be quickly forgotten.

PGMOL should have to come out and explain what the lines on the Adams goal are actually measuring, but we know they won't.

But the main difference this time is that we know why we lost badly, and it was more specific circumstances which will improve rather than because we are rubbish.

Get some players back fit and a regular lineup again and we can still finish top half - and thats a major achievement for a club that doesn't spend money.

We got 0pts from the game, its not the end of the world. 

Edited 3 February, 2021 by Dusic

[DT]

12 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Absolutely this.

If the goal stands, then it's 4-1 and suddenly we get a bit of belief and Utd realise they have some defending to do to stop us from clawing our way back into it. They don't then go and get a 5th and 6th in quick succession, and we don't end the game with 9 men. 

That incorrect decision was what turned it into a 9-0 game, which up until that point it clearly wasn't.

Completely agree. Something pretty sinister going on about the FA and Man U. Too many coincidences

[skintsaint]

nil points...a heck of a load of piss taken out of me today by everyone and a really weak squad to Newcastle...great.

[Uncle Albert]

1 minute ago, skintsaint said:

nil points...a heck of a load of piss taken out of me today by everyone and a really weak squad to Newcastle...great.

Same here

[spyinthesky]

11 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Obviously not nice to lose 9-0 but this feels totally different to the Leicester game. Then we were a poor team. Now we are just in a poor moment and had a game where pretty much everything that could go wrong did.

No blame on Ralph, he was hamstrung in terms of what he could do.

We were always going to struggle even with 11 due to the injury situation and Utd targetted Ramsay who clearly isn't up to this level.

Once the red happened it was obvious it would be a very tough night, and as soon as the first goal went in you kind of feared the worst.

Officiating was awful, and that certainly impacted the fact it ended 9-0 instead of maybe 5-1 or 6-1, after which the game would be quickly forgotten.

PGMOL should have to come out and explain what the lines on the Adams goal are actually measuring, but we know they won't.

But the main difference this time is that we know why we lost badly, and it was more specific circumstances which will improve rather than because we are rubbish.

Get some players back fit and a regular lineup again and we can still finish top half - and thats a major achievement for a club that doesn't spend money.

We got 0pts from the game, its not the end of the world. 

I blame the rain.

It was pissing down on both occasions and, as we are from the sunny south, we dont like moisture.

[Saint_Jonny]

1 minute ago, spyinthesky said:

I blame the rain.

It was pissing down on both occasions and, as we are from the sunny south, we dont like moisture.

Funny you should say that as from I saw they went in hard and dry last night.

[John Boy Saint]

27 minutes ago, Dusic said:

Obviously not nice to lose 9-0 but this feels totally different to the Leicester game. Then we were a poor team. Now we are just in a poor moment and had a game where pretty much everything that could go wrong did.

No blame on Ralph, he was hamstrung in terms of what he could do.

We were always going to struggle even with 11 due to the injury situation and Utd targetted Ramsay who clearly isn't up to this level.

Once the red happened it was obvious it would be a very tough night, and as soon as the first goal went in you kind of feared the worst.

Officiating was awful, and that certainly impacted the fact it ended 9-0 instead of maybe 5-1 or 6-1, after which the game would be quickly forgotten.

PGMOL should have to come out and explain what the lines on the Adams goal are actually measuring, but we know they won't.

But the main difference this time is that we know why we lost badly, and it was more specific circumstances which will improve rather than because we are rubbish.

Get some players back fit and a regular lineup again and we can still finish top half - and thats a major achievement for a club that doesn't spend money.

We got 0pts from the game, its not the end of the world. 

Tad harsh, as the game went on he got better and more assured, of course United targeted him, if the boot were on the other foot I would expect us to do the same. To say he "clearly isn't up to this level" is a comment worth ordering a few bags of to spread around under my Roses and Rhubarb.

Wayne Bridge first outings looked green, Gareth Bale looked wobbly first few games, Luke Shaw first games was being positioned by 1st Team regulars, lad from the academy had a baptism of fire last night he did alright...........in fact it might just turn out to have been very good for him. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Nolan said:

Now, I may be wrong here, but are they lining this up with Che's LONG sleeve?

 

No, the intersection of all three lines is at pitch level.

[Whitey Grandad]

40 minutes ago, DT said:

Completely agree. Something pretty sinister going on about the FA and Man U. Too many coincidences

Too many penalties at Old Trafford and all for the home team.

 

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/premier-league/all-time-premier-league/premier-league-penalty-statistics/