Do we sell Prowse?

[Appy]

5 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

What if we had a £25m striker, midfielder and centre half in those games and won them comfortably, as well as the Watford, Newcastle and Brentford games? That last sentence makes no sense, you’re basically saying what if we sold him and spent zero on any players, which would obviously be daft.

 

I would say yes, definitely, for £75m.

But we didn’t, I’m going with the player we currently have and what we know he can do, not your make believe players that we’d supposedly sign which could be complete flops. 

[Saint Garrett]

4 hours ago, Dorchester Saint said:

I don’t think he’s worth anywhere near 75 million anyway, ridiculous price when you think Mane has gone to Bayern for 35 million and Haaland to City for £51 million….bonkers media led nonsense. 

Not really comparable. Mane is old and had 1 year on his contract and Haaland had a release clause. If you’re going to compare him with anyone it should probably be Kalvin Phillips 

[S-Clarke]

29 minutes ago, Appy said:

But we didn’t, I’m going with the player we currently have and what we know he can do, not your make believe players that we’d supposedly sign which could be complete flops. 

This is the point I'm trying to make. £75m is nothing if we spend it like we did the VVD money.

We don't have enough good players 'here at the moment' to absorb the loss of our best player, let's develop some more good players here before we sell our only one at the moment. That's all I'm trying to say.

Yeah, we can spend £75m but it's all a gamble and we'd be gambling with no safety net. This is totally different to the situation we had selling Lambert, Lallana, Shaw, Chambers, Lovren etc. We still had Morgan, Wanyama, Clyne, Fonte at the club - with decent scouting we managed to offset the loss of those other key players, but let's not forget the impact the existing important players still had on that side.

[dronskisaint]

Keep, there's no way 75 million could buy the number of points he wins for us....and I'd say the same up to the Rice price ..would love him to see his career through with us but he has to want to ....

[Convict Colony]

9 minutes ago, dronskisaint said:

Keep, there's no way 75 million could buy the number of points he wins for us....and I'd say the same up to the Rice price ..would love him to see his career through with us but he has to want to ....

Here's my counter argument which could be correct.

JWP and Romeu in our midfield is too stodgy and slowing down transitions and opportunities for our wide/forward players.

JWP isn't a DM and he isn't an AM really either.

He's great at doing the basics well but in our team he has to do in open play the Kevin de bruyne role or even Gallagher role at palace. But that's not his game, he's a Henderson who can also take the best free kicks in the world.

It's been his best ever season with us and I'm happy if he has many more but I think him + Romeu could be detrimental to the goal scoring chances for the players in front of him this cutting down their goals.

If you will, our midfield is currently a speed bump that slows down our football and reduces the chances for our forwards.

If you look at the red bull teams that have been successful, they have 1 sitting midfielder and 1 that drives forward and gets goals.

Edited 24 June, 2022 by Convict Colony

[egg]

If he wants out, yep, but as long as we're ploughing all the cash back into 2 or 3 proper players. We'll miss him, but we need strengthening in other areas. 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Appy said:

But we didn’t, I’m going with the player we currently have and what we know he can do, not your make believe players that we’d supposedly sign which could be complete flops. 

 

37 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

This is the point I'm trying to make. £75m is nothing if we spend it like we did the VVD money.

We don't have enough good players 'here at the moment' to absorb the loss of our best player, let's develop some more good players here before we sell our only one at the moment. That's all I'm trying to say.

Yeah, we can spend £75m but it's all a gamble and we'd be gambling with no safety net. This is totally different to the situation we had selling Lambert, Lallana, Shaw, Chambers, Lovren etc. We still had Morgan, Wanyama, Clyne, Fonte at the club - with decent scouting we managed to offset the loss of those other key players, but let's not forget the impact the existing important players still had on that side.

If you're going to assume a worst case scenario, I'll say; what if JWP does his ACL 10 minutes into the game at the THS?

Les and Ross aren't here any more and the signings made since they left have, overall, looked at least competent despite an incredibly limited budget up until now.

[doc oli]

Keep

[gsweet87]

Sell. JWP is good player for us but not worth close to £75m.

[Dellman]

It's weird that people complain on this forum that the club lacks ambition but also advocates that we sell our best player.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Dellman said:

It's weird that people complain on this forum that the club lacks ambition but also advocates that we sell our best player.

We can't afford 3 x £25m players, but we need them. Selling JWP makes that possible. That's not a lack of ambition, it's recognising the  reality of where we are. 

 

[Uncle Albert]

Stick a 100+ million price tag on him to shut down any chance of him going, like West Ham have done with rice.

[Hodgey]

If we didn’t have JWP last year we’d probably have gone down. We know what he can do - he’s our captain, top goal scorer, is everywhere and assists. I honestly think if we sell him we go down - is that worth £75m - not for me. If however he really wants to go then £75m should be the price - means someone had to be really serious about starting him and allows JWP to leave with a chance of buying quality. As for our scouting skills - we’ve done ok recently, but there are so many holes in that squad already, and for every Livremento or Salisu there’s an Armstrong or Diallo. 

[verlaine1979]

He's a game changer if we get a free kick in a decent position. In open play he's just a very dependable water carrier. It's emblematic of the team's creative failings that some are pinning our hopes of staying up on points won from dead ball situations.

[HarvSFC]

JWP's skillset is irreplaceable for us. World-class free-kick taker, meaning they're always a threat and saw him finish as our top scorer. Ever reliable, never misses a game and never hides away and he won us the game against Tottenham away last season with two quality assists, showing that he's capable and it's perhaps the lower quality forwards which are the issue.

Additionally, we've seen in years gone by, Tottenham pissing up the Bale money, us pissing up the VvD money and most recently Aston Villa pissing up the Grealish money and regressing, despite netting £100m and making good signings on paper with reports a year later of them looking to sell Ings and Buendia, while Bailey was also disappointing. So, there'd be a huge risk and we'd need to replace 10 goals, which aren't going to come from anybody else currently in the squad, so the new signings would need to be a success.

Of course £75m would be a massive windfall for us, but in the long run we could end up losing £100m+ if we weren't to get the signings right and lost our Premier League status, so that's the gamble.

[Saint_lambden]

45 minutes ago, Uncle Albert said:

Stick a 100+ million price tag on him to shut down any chance of him going, like West Ham have done with rice.

The £75m price tag is more than enough. Nobody is going to pay that for him. 

[Saint86]

21 hours ago, Saint Keef said:

Wet Spam say that Rice is worth £150m. Rice is a very good player granted, and to them, that is what he's worth. But he's not twice as good as JWP. I think we should have stuck £100m tag on JWP. Imagine if the Spammers sell Rice for £150m and replace him for £75m with JWP, how would that make us look? They've then got JWP and another £75m to spend on other players as well, so it's a BIG NO for me.

Agree completely, should have been nearer the 100m mark - as valued against rice. At least, that's if we desperately wanted to keep him. As it is, I feel we've put 75m on him because we hope someone will offer it - and we will bite their arm off if it happens. That or we've made a woopsy. I don't think it's that unlikely a team like Chelsea or Liverpool won't come in for him. 

Edited 25 June, 2022 by Saint86

[Hodgey]

8 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

He's a game changer if we get a free kick in a decent position. In open play he's just a very dependable water carrier. It's emblematic of the team's creative failings that some are pinning our hopes of staying up on points won from dead ball situations.

Not sure that’s fair - he’s more than that, in open play he still scored more goals than any of our midfielders, and he does assist in open play, plus he is an excellent (not just dependable) water carrier who often prevents goals, so no - not just a game changer for free kicks in decent positions. On the creativity front I do agree, some is due to our style but also poor quality finishing and we need better players to solve this - but these players are few and hard to get above competition . Not sure about your point on dead ball situations - a goals a goal, whether it’s from a free kick or an open play postage stamp from 30 yards it’ll still win games. If you happen to have someone who can do that the last thing you want is to lose them as you won’t find a replacement.

[coalman]

I honestly think £75m would be good business. I think our current owners are more likely to spend the money well than our previous. And, as many have said, our midfield looks ponderous at times.

I don't think JWP is dynamic enough to boss a midfield or skilful enough to really stretch other teams. There were flashes last season with a couple or peachy early balls but he's either not playing with that intent enough or high enough up the pitch to have those opportunities. 

[Saint_clark]

People saying that selling him for £75million would mean we'd get 3x£25million players are forgetting that players in that price range all want £100k a week or more, so to cover those wages for one season we'd be using just under £16million of the transfer fee. Plus agents fees and signing bonuses, and probably banking some to cover the wages for more than one season, all of a sudden you're saying that we'd have £40million to spend on players with the other £35million used to pay their wages and bonuses for the next two seasons. 

So we'd be looking to replace JWP in midfield and then sign one or two more players for £40million...not likely to improve us. 

We'd probably sell him, buy Svanberg as a replacement and then get two £15million players in at AM and striker who aren't guaranteed to succeed. 

Keep him, for the rest of his career.

[Gurj]

For me, the most crucial factor in answering this question is, will we line up someone or two first, or will it be the usual Saints feck up of selling first, letting everyone know we have a stack of money to spend and being held to ransom for bang average over priced players? If it is the former and we can trade smart under the new owners then 100% yes sell. JWP is not all that. 75m could buy at least 2 good players, plus probably one or two potentials. We saw last season when he was out for a spell, we played very well without him. He is not indispensable and some seem to think, no way. 

[saintadjg]

He missed two Premier League games last season. I'd hardly call that a spell.

[aintforever]

I would probably sell for £75mill, it depends on the state of the finances and obviously wether he wants to leave or not. If he’s happy here and we can strengthen enough without having to sell then it always makes sense to keep your best players.

[OldNick]

if Kalvin Phillips is going for around £40m we are in a dream world at 75m. His worth is 40m in my opinion

[Matthew Le God]

4 minutes ago, OldNick said:

if Kalvin Phillips is going for around £40m we are in a dream world at 75m. His worth is 40m in my opinion

Ward-Prowse has two years longer on his contract than Phillips, which has a big impact on price. If Leeds don't sell this summer Phillips value plummets as it gets closer to expiring. Ward-Prowse will still hold a lot of value if Saints don't sell him as he'd still have 3 years left next summer.

Edited 25 June, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

People saying that selling him for £75million would mean we'd get 3x£25million players are forgetting that players in that price range all want £100k a week or more, so to cover those wages for one season we'd be using just under £16million of the transfer fee. Plus agents fees and signing bonuses, and probably banking some to cover the wages for more than one season, all of a sudden you're saying that we'd have £40million to spend on players with the other £35million used to pay their wages and bonuses for the next two seasons. 

So we'd be looking to replace JWP in midfield and then sign one or two more players for £40million...not likely to improve us. 

We'd probably sell him, buy Svanberg as a replacement and then get two £15million players in at AM and striker who aren't guaranteed to succeed. 

Keep him, for the rest of his career.

That’s an incredibly skewed take on it. You basically assumed we have no other money for transfer OR wages other than what we get for selling Prowsey. Taking your 3x £100k wages as a given, JWP is probably on that himself and FF wouldn’t have been far off. If we can offload any of Long, Djenepo, Bednarek etc. that’d be at least £50k each, so with bad coming in we’re basically even.

Essentially you’re talking about spending £35m on agents fees for two Adam Armstrongs and a Svanberg, which would just be madness.

[tajjuk]

No, IMO for us he is irreplaceable. 

We would lose his -

- Leadership, both by example on the pitch but his professionalism off the pitch, always improving, seems to gel the team together well, he's basically a model pro for the younger players to look up to.

- His set pieces which are World Class, no one in world football right now is as much as a threat as him (and he seems to be getting better year on year), really no one in the PL for the last 10+ years is as good as him either. 

- His availability, fitness, work rate. He runs all day, very rarely gets injured and can play back to back to back games with little issue. On this point alone you feel like we'd probably need TWO players to cover his games and work rate because they would get knackered, injured etc. more often.

- His appeal to other players joining the club, it's been mentioned by the club a few times that players are (in part) joining the club to play with him and asking whether he will still be here. 

- His versatility, he's competently played right back and right wing back for us before, including keeping Zaha in his pocket. I am sure given more licence to get forward he'd also contribute in the no.10 spots if needed.

- Last and not least, his all round midfield ability, he's more than a set piece specialist, he's defensively sound, intercepts the ball well, plays on the front foot and has a good all round passing ability. He also is becoming more and more of a threat with long shots from open play. Some will criticise his 'sideways passing' but I both think that is unfair but you also don't know what his instructions are, he has a good brain on him and it's been mentioned that Ralph loves him because he can understand and carry out complex instructions on the pitch and instruct others to do it.

Even for £100 million I am struggling to see how we replace all that, we'd have to get multiple players who excel in multiple areas to fill that hole IMO.

I think luckily with Man City buying Phillips, the number of clubs that A. Could afford to buy him and B. He'd want to go, is very small at the moment. I can't see him leaving for a Newcastle, I don't think money drives him that much, he'd want to be at a club challenging for trophies now whilst he's at his peak. 

 

[ally_uk]

Personally I would keep unless he wants to go and the money is a silly offer.

I can't see who we would replace him with?

[AlexLaw76]

I would be very annoyed if he was to go to a non-champions league club (or Man United).

But which CL would want him?

Liverpool? No.  City? About to get Phillips. Spurs? Just signed Bissouma. Chelsea? Very unlikely/No.  Man U? After De Jong, are they not?

[Charlie Wayman]

16 hours ago, Dellman said:

It's weird that people complain on this forum that the club lacks ambition but also advocates that we sell our best player.

Sometimes you have to move (apparently) backwards in order to move forward again. JWP has done more or less all he can for Saints and if we can buy two half decent players with the money raised from his transfer how. can that not be a benefit in the longer term?.

If everything stays the same through an abundance of caution then inevitably we will get the same old results.

[Matthew Le God]

19 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

If everything stays the same through an abundance of caution then inevitably we will get the same old results.

It hasn't stayed the same. They've sacked 3 coaches, hired a new one and signed 2 players so far who are likely to quickly be in the starting XI relativelyquickly. If Ward-Prowse stays do you really think Saints won't bring in other players this summer?

Edited 25 June, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[SNSUN]

Sell Darth Vader? I bet he'd have some takers. Although he is dead now... 😏

 

As for Ward-Prowse, then it's a tricky one. He's just had a cracking season and is 27. This is perhaps the summer we'd get the most money for him if we did sell him close to what our asking price is. I don't think he'd fetch as much next season unless he had a better season stats wise.

 

On the other hand we'd have been relegated without him,  he's our captain, heartbeat, engine, is rarely ever unfit and a set piece expert, and has added other goal involvements to his game. He's also fairly versatile and has the ability to get under other player's skin. 

 

I want to keep him and I think the club would want to keep him but with a squad that needs an overhaul, if the right money was offered for him, I'd probably sell, if the money were to be invested in the playing staff.

[Whitey Grandad]

I’d rather he stayed.

[Nemi]

On 24/06/2022 at 21:17, Convict Colony said:

Here's my counter argument which could be correct.

JWP and Romeu in our midfield is too stodgy and slowing down transitions and opportunities for our wide/forward players.

JWP isn't a DM and he isn't an AM really either.

He's great at doing the basics well but in our team he has to do in open play the Kevin de bruyne role or even Gallagher role at palace. But that's not his game, he's a Henderson who can also take the best free kicks in the world.

It's been his best ever season with us and I'm happy if he has many more but I think him + Romeu could be detrimental to the goal scoring chances for the players in front of him this cutting down their goals.

If you will, our midfield is currently a speed bump that slows down our football and reduces the chances for our forwards.

If you look at the red bull teams that have been successful, they have 1 sitting midfielder and 1 that drives forward and gets goals.

I think this is basically spot on (though I guess I rate Henderson - in his role at Liverpool especially - far higher than you do). 
 

It’s too late now, but I genuinely think that JWP would have been much better if he was converted like Trent into a RB role. He’s an incredibly effective player when he’s facing forward and has the space to play the crosses he’s capable of. 
 

But facing backwards towards our goal, he does play it too safe and he does slow down our play.
 

Honestly, I think overall his best spell was alongside Hojbjerg, who was a bit more mobile than Romeu and was able to do all the dirty bits (which made him look worse) while JWP was able to have a bit more freedom. I feel now due to Romeu’s lack of mobility he’s always playing slightly constrained, and finds himself in positions he’s not as confortable in. Like you say he’s not an out and out CAM or a CDM and playing with Hojbjerg he was able to play more within his comfort zone knowing that he wouldn’t have to cover as much as he has to now.

 

The other issue is that he is our biggest creative outlet (more due to the fact that the other positions are so lacking), which does reflect well in his stats. But the way he creates - by putting the ball into dangerous areas rather than targeted passes - didn’t really suit our strikers. He’s our best creator but he is also disconnected from the strengths of our team. Which was a massive problem last season considering our goal scoring issues. 
 

And it ended up that we relied on his individual qualities to dig us out of trouble (free-kicks, shots from distance), while his weaknesses contributed to that need for him to bail us out, because our midfield was moving it too slowly, and they weren’t playing to the strengths of our strikers.

Ultimately, and this is completely obvious, but, selling him could benefit us if the right replacements are brought in. In general play, he is probably replaceable when you weigh up his strengths and weaknesses. And some of those funds could improve is in other critical areas where we are lacking. But it could also completely screw us if the right players didn’t come into replace him. 

 

 

[macca155]

There is a reason other clubs want him, players that can regularly impact positively on a game remain rare.

He needs more support in midfield. When he plays in midfield for England with Phillips, who I rate massively, he has a lot more room and plays further forward. That puts him on a position to put the ball on Kane's head or toe. 

£75 million is a good price. If he wants to go and then so be it. He deserves a go at CL football. If he stays play him further forward and buy a Calvert-Lewin type to bang the goals on. I miss Pelle and Lambert.

The crucial point is that the club must have a replacement lined up, or a youngster ready to step up.

Good test of the club's strategy.

[Sarnia Cherie]

I would rather keep him if we can and if he wants to stay. No point keeping a player who wants out. We know what WP can do and I think we might struggle to find a suitable replacement for him. Better the devil you know sometimes. I would just like to see us build around our best players and have some ambition for better things. Never seems to happen, though. 

[benjii]

On 25/06/2022 at 00:17, Convict Colony said:

Here's my counter argument which could be correct.

JWP and Romeu in our midfield is too stodgy and slowing down transitions and opportunities for our wide/forward players.

JWP isn't a DM and he isn't an AM really either.

He's great at doing the basics well but in our team he has to do in open play the Kevin de bruyne role or even Gallagher role at palace. But that's not his game, he's a Henderson who can also take the best free kicks in the world.

It's been his best ever season with us and I'm happy if he has many more but I think him + Romeu could be detrimental to the goal scoring chances for the players in front of him this cutting down their goals.

If you will, our midfield is currently a speed bump that slows down our football and reduces the chances for our forwards.

If you look at the red bull teams that have been successful, they have 1 sitting midfielder and 1 that drives forward and gets goals.

Interesting that the other players you compare him to don't play in a stupid 442 and aren't expected to cover every single blade of grass on the pitch week in, week out.

[Koolman]

BBC gossip page suggesting West Ham move 🤨

[Butthole_Surfer]

I'd sell if Saints were able to buy Sander Berge (plus Baumgartner maybe), Benjamin Sesko and a decent CB (or better one with Bednarek possibly leaving as well) for the money they'd receive for him.

[The Kraken]

Sheff U want £25M for Berge. But then they did want £35M for him last season.

The only way we get him and the other players we need is if we raise funds by selling Ward Prowse IMO.

[Butthole_Surfer]

That's what I basically meant but didn't write too understandable 😉
IF he wanted to leave and these players could be bought as replacements I'd be willing to do it…

[mrfahaji]

On 24/06/2022 at 14:21, tunit said:

Similar to above. Sell if we can get two 30m players who will go straight into the first team. If its going to be for a few 10m gamble players then no

 

Agree with the sentiment, but £30m can still be a big gamble, we've seen lots of clubs chuck that sort of money down the drain.

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, mrfahaji said:

 

Agree with the sentiment, but £30m can still be a big gamble, we've seen lots of clubs chuck that sort of money down the drain.

It's an interesting question to be fair, aside the big boys, what PL clubs have spent £25, 30, 40 million plus on a single player that have turned out to be successful? Because in recent memory I can think of a lot of flops (or at least disappointing relative to their fees) -

Haller, Joelinton, Buendia, Ings (to villa), Fabio Silva, Felipe Anderson, Gyfli Siggurdson, Sander Berge, Rodrigo, Benteke (to Palace).

The most successful one I can think of is Tielemans, and maybe if he keeps his form up Guimares for Newcastle. 

Even for the big clubs lots of flops like Ndombele, Pepe, Bakayoko, Kepa, Lukaku, Morata, Werner, etc. etc. just they can afford the flops more easily (and seem to be able to flip the flops on to other clubs as well).

But looking at it, when middling clubs tend to go big on the transfer fees it doesn't work out that well. 

[OldNick]

Not sure if this at all relevant, but I do see that JWP is put as a leader. I wonder if people look to see who was captain in both of our 9-0 defeats

[nta786]

6 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Not sure if this at all relevant, but I do see that JWP is put as a leader. I wonder if people look to see who was captain in both of our 9-0 defeats

Well wasn't Hojbjerg captain for the first one? 

If I'm gonna use the 9-0 lines, it's the stick to beat Ralph with than JWP

[Toussaint]

6 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Not sure if this at all relevant, but I do see that JWP is put as a leader. I wonder if people look to see who was captain in both of our 9-0 defeats

that's a bit harsh, he is only one man. I do recall him looking absolutely forlorn in the Chelsea capitulation, t (which was far worse than either 9 - 0 in my opinion),  trying to cover a midfield that was being torn to shreds. If I was singling out anyone it would be the players who got sent of early through recklessness, but mostly at Ralph's door who was a bewildered dear in the headlights for all 3 of those games. When Ralph Ball fails it does so spectacularly.

[OldNick]

I think that is very fair,

[OldNick]

19 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

that's a bit harsh, he is only one man. I do recall him looking absolutely forlorn in the Chelsea capitulation, t (which was far worse than either 9 - 0 in my opinion),  trying to cover a midfield that was being torn to shreds. If I was singling out anyone it would be the players who got sent of early through recklessness, but mostly at Ralph's door who was a bewildered dear in the headlights for all 3 of those games. When Ralph Ball fails it does so spectacularly.

Again fair points but I cant imagine a hardened leader being in such a midfield, but perhaps Im just steeling myself for JWP to leave and trying to justify that we may not miss some parts of his game

[Killers Knee]

$75m is enough to build a new core of the team.  4 new quality players in the spine of the team.  GK, CD, CM, ST.  If they help us concede 10 less goal in a season and score 10 more, we are much better off selling.

[Bad Wolf]

On 24/06/2022 at 20:31, Saint Garrett said:

Not really comparable. Mane is old and had 1 year on his contract and Haaland had a release clause. If you’re going to compare him with anyone it should probably be Kalvin Phillips 

Phillips is genuinely an awful player. He had one good game for England last summer and has lived off it ever since. No idea what he's even meant to bring to a team. Not much better than Winks.