Should Saints sack Tonda?

[BARCELONASAINT]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

Funny you should say that looking at your user name, I have a regular work call with a client in Barcelona where we often share a bit of football chat , he told me the story had made the sports news over there but definitely a sense they were laughing about it (pantomime villian kid with a phone, comedy sketch) rather than any outrage. 

Outside of the UK no one cares a jot, what Tonda did it is common practise. Barcelona and Real Madrid would be treated like child killers here in the UK if the EFL or FA had their way!

[Dr Who?]

I see there had been a massive swing in the poll since the first 24/48 hours. Over the last 24 hours more now want him to stay. 

[Saint In Cornwall]

Tonda may be responsible for our ejection from the playoffs but who got us there?

[Maggie May]

20 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

I see there had been a massive swing in the poll since the first 24/48 hours. Over the last 24 hours more now want him to stay. 

Sadly, I don’t think we have a choice. The FA will ban him. This is why there’s radio silence from the club. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

Sadly, I don’t think we have a choice. The FA will ban him. This is why there’s radio silence from the club. 

Agreed. There will likely be some announcement at some point this week and that will be the first time the club communicate anything since last week.

[Cuddles]

Why would they ban him though?

[grezz]

This goes beyond Tonda 'getting us there' in my opinion. Of course he did, without question there was nothing to throw away without him. I don't think any sensible person would question that (neither should the players actually). Clearly a brilliant manager and he'll continue to be without the need for spying 'within 72 hours'. 

But how can Saints FC claim any integrity going forwards unless they fire him over this? I don't think we can. It's sad, I hate it, but rebuilding the integrity of the club must come first in my opinion.

Edited 11 hours ago by grezz

[hugh]

I voted NO right back at the start, and I have waded through every single post on here. Absolutely nothing that I have read has changed my mind. If there is anything at all we can do to keep him, then it needs to be done. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Manager, CEO, Sporting director and technical director have all gone!

 

 

Read more about AC Milan's quick restructure here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cpqpp7ln1jeo

🙂

[Golac's Iron Gonads]

6 minutes ago, grezz said:

But how can Saints FC claim any integrity going forwards unless they fire him over this? 

Why do they need to claim integrity? Which team in the premier league shows any kind of integrity, how does it manifest itself to us as fans?  The club are not politicians, used car dealers, estate agents. They are a sports club that operate to make money, win games and to a much lesser extent entertain fans. 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, sockeye said:

I completely understand where you're coming from here. But the football world is rife with bad behaviour both on and off of the pitch. Hence the gentlemanly approach doesn't do too much for me. Being nice won't get you anywhere as this whole saga showed. Conversely, Eckert succeeded in his role and has proved himself to be a very capable manager for this level. I feel it would be difficult to get someone just as good, and obviously he's not going to try the whole spying lark again. But I accept that I could well be eating my words in a few months if a new appointment does well or we start badly under Tonda.

I’m in the same boat as you really, but just pointing out the contradictions applied.

For me, heart says I’d like Tonda to remain. Head tells me it won’t happen, probably due to FA suspension or actions. 
 

Parsons seems another bumbling performance by an SR appointment in a key post. 

[SuperSAINT]

13 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Manager, CEO, Sporting director and technical director have all gone!

 

 

Read more about AC Milan's quick restructure here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cpqpp7ln1jeo

🙂

Cortese to finally get his move?

[grezz]

5 minutes ago, Golac's Iron Gonads said:

Why do they need to claim integrity? Which team in the premier league shows any kind of integrity, how does it manifest itself to us as fans?  The club are not politicians, used car dealers, estate agents. They are a sports club that operate to make money, win games and to a much lesser extent entertain fans. 

For bums on seats? Because it's the right thing to do? Possible that being of an older generation these things mean more to me, and people like me, than the national average. I've no idea about that factually but that's how I feel. I think if Saints fans didn't have a bit of integrity about them they'd more likely be big 6 fans and there's some reason, based on some kind of desire for integrity, that they stick with their local team.

[saintant]

27 minutes ago, grezz said:

This goes beyond Tonda 'getting us there' in my opinion. Of course he did, without question there was nothing to throw away without him. I don't think any sensible person would question that (neither should the players actually). Clearly a brilliant manager and he'll continue to be without the need for spying 'within 72 hours'. 

But how can Saints FC claim any integrity going forwards unless they fire him over this? I don't think we can. It's sad, I hate it, but rebuilding the integrity of the club must come first in my opinion.

There is no integrity in football. It's dog eat dog.

[Cuddles]

3 minutes ago, grezz said:

For bums on seats? Because it's the right thing to do? Possible that being of an older generation these things mean more to me, and people like me, than the national average. I've no idea about that factually but that's how I feel. I think if Saints fans didn't have a bit of integrity about them they'd more likely be big 6 fans and there's some reason, based on some kind of desire for integrity, that they stick with their local team.

The problem is that football has changed. There's no integrity. Everyone is trying to find another way to win. There is no loyalty. Money is now king.

[Pilchards]

Going to be fun thinking up a song if Tonda does indeed stay.

 

[EBS1980]

As a business you can’t let someone who’s actions have been effectively described as bullying of younger junior staff and led to the team being excluded from a competition to go unpunished.  
 

How can the club that said:

”The club will reflect carefully on the events that have led to this point, learn from them and take the necessary steps to move forward responsibly.”

 

move forward without taking the steps of removing those responsible for the shame and embarrassment brought upon it. 

[Pilchards]

‘He’s going to get us promoted in 2027,

We love him as our manager, we love him as a spy.

He’s going to cheat the Boro and the skate bastards too.

Our saviours Tonda Eckert we sing this song for you.

Binoculars, Binoculars, Binoculars, Binoculars.’

 

TUNE OF THE CHAPEL SONG

Edited 10 hours ago by Pilchards

[Livewire]

For all those who want Tonda to stay, look up Bev Priestman as a probable precedent. 

[Vancouver Saint]

I'm astonished people think he should still stay on as manager. 100% he has to go. Not just because his position is untenable, but because ignorance of the law is no defence - and it's plain dumb stupidity that in this digital age when you can observe and analyse everything he thinks the advantage of getting an (incompetent) intern to take low quality video is going to help. He and everybody else should have known the risk-reward scenario.
Yes, I think the punishment is totally out of proportion to the crime - but my business is brands and brand-building and I called this days before the final hearing that we'd be made an example of.

It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it.

Tonda, wittingly or not, has damaged our global reputation as a club for years to come.
He has to go.

Not just him, but everyone in the management team who was aware of it and did nothing about it. Them's the breaks.

As my son and fellow Saints supporter says - I've used up my emotional bandwidth with Saints - they don't deserve my support. I've been supporting them for 57 years and this is lowest point of all.
The fact we haven't sacked him already - cowards waiting for the FA to ban him and do it for us to save a few quid? - makes it even worse.
No statements from the leadership, apart from what were obvious lies now: 'he was working alone as a lone wolf'.

If we think we're going on some magical redemption arc with Tonda still at the helm next season and going on another long unbeaten run with the rags of whatever team we're left with - you're smoking stronger stuff than we get here in BC (and it's the best!)

Naturally, if someone wants to re-post this next year after we've been promoted Champions under Eckert's leadership I will happily eat massive humble pie.🙃

[obelisk]

6 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

the integrity of the game

Hilarious. Football? Integrity? 🤣

[Verbal]

14 minutes ago, Vancouver Saint said:

I'm astonished people think he should still stay on as manager. 100% he has to go. Not just because his position is untenable, but because ignorance of the law is no defence - and it's plain dumb stupidity that in this digital age when you can observe and analyse everything he thinks the advantage of getting an (incompetent) intern to take low quality video is going to help. He and everybody else should have known the risk-reward scenario.
Yes, I think the punishment is totally out of proportion to the crime - but my business is brands and brand-building and I called this days before the final hearing that we'd be made an example of.

It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it.

Tonda, wittingly or not, has damaged our global reputation as a club for years to come.
He has to go.

Not just him, but everyone in the management team who was aware of it and did nothing about it. Them's the breaks.

As my son and fellow Saints supporter says - I've used up my emotional bandwidth with Saints - they don't deserve my support. I've been supporting them for 57 years and this is lowest point of all.
The fact we haven't sacked him already - cowards waiting for the FA to ban him and do it for us to save a few quid? - makes it even worse.
No statements from the leadership, apart from what were obvious lies now: 'he was working alone as a lone wolf'.

If we think we're going on some magical redemption arc with Tonda still at the helm next season and going on another long unbeaten run with the rags of whatever team we're left with - you're smoking stronger stuff than we get here in BC (and it's the best!)

Naturally, if someone wants to re-post this next year after we've been promoted Champions under Eckert's leadership I will happily eat massive humble pie.🙃

I think that while all of this is true - and I agree with it - it's hard to get one's head around the fact that all of this colossal damage has flowed from an intern hiding behind a tree with an iphone. The sheer dissonance of it all, rather than any blind eyes being turned, is probably in the minds a lot of those voting for him to stay. 

[Saint86]

18 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Tonda has been specifically named that he “pressured” junior members of staff to break the rules, even when they tried to push back. 

Is this true? I haven't seen the actual evidence for it as yet.

"Bullying" (etc) wasn't a listed charge. The use of junior staff was a reprimand.

This is the quote (below) that relates to it, it doesn't mention tonda - which, given he is named for other charges, is an explicit/interesting omission I would say. To me, that omission suggests that any evidence (if any) relating to pressuring staff / bullying is lacking and/or doesn't actually show tonda is guilty of bullying. Has it instead been added as a nefarious "doesn't this sound bad" to back up / hammer home the punishment without really being proven - because I cannot see any hard evidence of it? Happy to be wrong and shown it?

It's feasible this could have been part of a plea style deal for Salt after the fact. The reality is that it is very likely he did the dirty on us after getting caught to save his own skin. The EFL had one oral witness (which is almost certainly salt), and 4 witness statements it total - and someone gave us up for the Eastleigh/Ipswich spying after the initial offence (and Ipswich weren't aware of it) - this cannot have been taylor. Boro only knew about Oxford from the start (on the same day salt rocked up at their training ground). Which we all know was very fishy anyway.

The report appears to go on and mention salt (without naming him), and him saying verbally in the his oral witness statement that he felt under pressure. But this is oral evidence after the fact and initial charges, and from someone accused / admitting to wrong doing for the initial charges - it is seemingly not backed up by any messages (text/email) and it's essentially a case of "he said, she said". And frankly, he just isn't a credible witness at this point as he is basically saying whatever the EFL want to protect himself.

So as above, I am happy to be wrong on this, but I haven't seen actual evidence that tonda bullied Salt into spying against his will yet 🤷. And yet the story from the media (and Blackmore has said this incessantly ) is that tonda bullied salt. It looks like a further trial by media, and people choosing to interpret the report to hammer eckert. But I'm afraid that in the "bullying" accusations, Eckert has to be given the benefit of doubt and be treated as innocent until proven guilty - and people, especially journalists, and club journalists in particular, should keep that in mind. Sadly it's been a witch hunt since the start..

In fact, it's all a little bit dubious that the report puts so much weight on oral evidence of a whislteblower (again, almost certainly salt - guilty of multiple incidences of wrongdoing himself) to justify such a disproportionate punishment after the fact... Whilst also the same report outright dismissed the oral evidence of our 4 witnesses when convenient. Thats a kangaroo trial in my book.

Edited 9 hours ago by Saint86

[Whitey Grandad]

32 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Is this true? I haven't seen the actual evidence for it as yet.

"Bullying" (etc) wasn't a listed charge. The use of junior staff was a reprimand.

This is the quote (below) that relates to it, it doesn't mention tonda - which, given he is named for other charges, is an explicit/interesting omission I would say. To me, that omission suggests that any evidence (if any) relating to pressuring staff / bullying is lacking and/or doesn't actually show tonda is guilty of bullying. Has it instead been added as a nefarious "doesn't this sound bad" to back up / hammer home the punishment without really being proven - because I cannot see any hard evidence of it? Happy to be wrong and shown it?

It's feasible this could have been part of a plea style deal for Salt after the fact. The reality is that it is very likely he did the dirty on us after getting caught to save his own skin. The EFL had one oral witness (which is almost certainly salt), and 4 witness statements it total - and someone gave us up for the Eastleigh/Ipswich spying after the initial offence (and Ipswich weren't aware of it) - this cannot have been taylor. Boro only knew about Oxford from the start (on the same day salt rocked up at their training ground). Which we all know was very fishy anyway.

The report appears to go on and mention salt (without naming him), and him saying verbally in the his oral witness statement that he felt under pressure. But this is oral evidence after the fact and initial charges, and from someone accused / admitting to wrong doing for the initial charges - it is seemingly not backed up by any messages (text/email) and it's essentially a case of "he said, she said". And frankly, he just isn't a credible witness at this point as he is basically saying whatever the EFL want to protect himself.

So as above, I am happy to be wrong on this, but I haven't seen actual evidence that tonda bullied Salt into spying against his will yet 🤷. And yet the story from the media (and Blackmore has said this incessantly ) is that tonda bullied salt. It looks like a further trial by media, and people choosing to interpret the report to hammer eckert. But I'm afraid that in the "bullying" accusations, Eckert has to be given the benefit of doubt and be treated as innocent until proven guilty - and people, especially journalists, and club journalists in particular, should keep that in mind. Sadly it's been a witch hunt since the start..

In fact, it's all a little bit dubious that the report puts so much weight on oral evidence of a whislteblower (again, almost certainly salt - guilty of multiple incidences of wrongdoing himself) to justify such a disproportionate punishment after the fact... Whilst also the same report outright dismissed the oral evidence of our 4 witnesses when convenient. Thats a kangaroo trial in my book.

Very interesting.  It's almost as though he wanted to get caught.

[CanadaSaint]

1 hour ago, obelisk said:

Hilarious. Football? Integrity? 🤣

I hear you, but any ruling they hand down from on high will almost certainly use those words.

37 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Is this true? I haven't seen the actual evidence for it as yet.

"Bullying" (etc) wasn't a listed charge. The use of junior staff was a reprimand.

This is the quote (below) that relates to it, it doesn't mention tonda - which, given he is named for other charges, is an explicit/interesting omission I would say. To me, that omission suggests that any evidence (if any) relating to pressuring staff / bullying is lacking and/or doesn't actually show tonda is guilty of bullying. Has it instead been added as a nefarious "doesn't this sound bad" to back up / hammer home the punishment without really being proven - because I cannot see any hard evidence of it? Happy to be wrong and shown it?

It's feasible this could have been part of a plea style deal for Salt after the fact. The reality is that it is very likely he did the dirty on us after getting caught to save his own skin. The EFL had one oral witness (which is almost certainly salt), and 4 witness statements it total - and someone gave us up for the Eastleigh/Ipswich spying after the initial offence (and Ipswich weren't aware of it) - this cannot have been taylor. Boro only knew about Oxford from the start (on the same day salt rocked up at their training ground). Which we all know was very fishy anyway.

The report appears to go on and mention salt (without naming him), and him saying verbally in the his oral witness statement that he felt under pressure. But this is oral evidence after the fact and initial charges, and from someone accused / admitting to wrong doing for the initial charges - it is seemingly not backed up by any messages (text/email) and it's essentially a case of "he said, she said". And frankly, he just isn't a credible witness at this point as he is basically saying whatever the EFL want to protect himself.

So as above, I am happy to be wrong on this, but I haven't seen actual evidence that tonda bullied Salt into spying against his will yet 🤷. And yet the story from the media (and Blackmore has said this incessantly ) is that tonda bullied salt. It looks like a further trial by media, and people choosing to interpret the report to hammer eckert. But I'm afraid that in the "bullying" accusations, Eckert has to be given the benefit of doubt and be treated as innocent until proven guilty - and people, especially journalists, and club journalists in particular, should keep that in mind. Sadly it's been a witch hunt since the start..

In fact, it's all a little bit dubious that the report puts so much weight on oral evidence of a whislteblower (again, almost certainly salt - guilty of multiple incidences of wrongdoing himself) to justify such a disproportionate punishment after the fact... Whilst also the same report outright dismissed the oral evidence of our 4 witnesses when convenient. Thats a kangaroo trial in my book.

Quite what they had for evidence we don't know, but it clearly infuriated them, as part of Section 31 shows:

It involved far more than innocent activity and a particularly deplorable approach in its use of junior members of staff to conduct the clandestine operations at the direction of senior personnel.

It's almost as though we were hammered because we failed their "sniff test" (with their nostrils inflamed by Gibson's antics and a counsel who articulated those views), rather than because they had a sound legal basis for hammering us. It doesn't really matter any more, but it would be interesting to know how an appeal to a proper court would turn out. They might find that the decision was based more in umbrage than legality.

[HKsaint]

6 hours ago, Jack said:

The club need to throw whatever they’ve got at making a deal for Peretz if he’s even slightly open to the idea. It’d have a huge positive impact on the supporters and I’m sure on the playing squad too, he’s a proper leader and clearly well liked, it may sway others that are on the fence. Hugely unlikely that he’d want to sign with us, I’m sure he’ll have far better offers, but it’d be negligent not to try everything with the state of our goalkeeping department. 

We have Baz already.

6 hours ago, DellBlockH said:

Last season, we stunk up the Premier League and slipped out at a record earliest date after sticking with Russell Marin for too long. We followed that with the appointment of Ivan Juric and then Will Still. We stunk up the Championship for the first half of this season. But, somehow, we attracted a major shirt sponsor in the shape of P&O Cruises. 

This talk that sponsors will want out is nothing more than a feeling on the part of some posters here. I've seen nothing to suggest that any of our sponsors don't want to continue their deals.

I'll repeat. We did wrong. We've been punished. Whether that punishment was fair or excessive is no longer the argument. It happened and is not going to change. We need to decide whether keeping the best manager we've had in ages has a negative impact on the club in the future. I'm firmly in the camp that says we keep him unless the FA decide that is untenable or if the players no longer want to work with him (and I've seen no evidence of that).

Nobody outside Southampton, and perhaps Middlesbrough, will care once the new season starts about our observing other teams' training. There might be some banter and chanting but this can all be quelled by results on the pitch. It would, to my mind, be foolish to sack someone who has shown he is capable of getting those results. 

We've been punished. I've no doubt Tonda has been punished as he must have been on a bonus had we got to the EPL. Move on and stop the self-flagellation.

I am sure that there will be banter and chanting even if we have sacked Tonda. 

[qwertyell]

4 hours ago, Dr Who? said:

I see there had been a massive swing in the poll since the first 24/48 hours. Over the last 24 hours more now want him to stay. 

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves;  inventing their own version of the rules where if you don't win the games you were cheating on, it doesn't really count; spreading unsubstantiated gossip that our mysterious spies were not even employed by the club;  convincing themselves that we wouldn't receive any meaningful punishment as it was all a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; convincing themselves that the only reason we received such a meaningful punishment was due to a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; dreaming up conspiracies where actually we were the victims of some kind of entrapment that forced us to spy;  imagining that everyone on the independent panel and appeals panel were bought and paid for by Boro; clinging to a meaningless "Leeds precedent" from 2019 when the current rules weren't in place;  banging on endlessly about other leagues that have different rules as though that invalidates the rules in the league we actually play in. An endless stream of denial, deflection, and whataboutisms. 

Incredibly, these people who refuse to believe anything think it's entirely credible that the manager who worked at two EFL clubs under these rules had no idea he was sending people out to cheat when he was demanding they dress up disguised as Eastleigh players so as not to be rumbled absolutely not cheating while spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh's training ground - and that even after the objections raised by the interns he was sending to spy he still remained unaware that he was systemically breaching the rules for six months. 

It's an endless twisting reimagining of reality as a coping mechanism. There must be something in the water down here: Icke, Le Tissier, Lambert, 51% of saintsweb. Makes you think. 

It's really not complicated. Tonda oversaw six months of premeditated rule breaking, ran his operation so amateurishly that the "big secret" was not just openly known throughout the club to the point that they were sending around doctored pictures of their analysts as spies for jokes, but also known by people outside the club, with damning evidence on their devices to share with whatever regulatory body as and when they so decided. And it blew up in our faces, spectacularly. One charge of spying became three upon closer inspection. I'm not sure we've got the full tally in yet. We cheated, we got caught, we admitted it - although the club pretty disgracefully first tried to throw a lone-wolf intern under the bus, and the manager tried to weasel out of any responsibility with a pathetic lie about being ignorant of the rules - we got punished. That's it.

Was the punishment deserved? Absolutely. Proportionate? Less clear cut, but if you put yourself in that position, you've got no-one else to blame when it goes tits up. And the manager (and his coconspirators) put us in that position. That's just the reality. 

There is no version of the club's statement to move forward with "humility, accountability, and determination to put things right" that ends up with the arsonist who burned down the whole season remaining in post with a fresh box of matches. 

Edited 8 hours ago by qwertyell

[Saint Fan CaM]

52 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves;  inventing their own version of the rules where if you don't win the games you were cheating on, it doesn't really count; spreading unsubstantiated gossip that our mysterious spies were not even employed by the club;  convincing themselves that we wouldn't receive any meaningful punishment as it was all a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; convincing themselves that the only reason we received such a meaningful punishment was due to a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; dreaming up conspiracies where actually we were the victims of some kind of entrapment that forced us to spy;  imagining that everyone on the independent panel and appeals panel were bought and paid for by Boro; clinging to a meaningless "Leeds precedent" from 2019 when the current rules weren't in place;  banging on endlessly about other leagues that have different rules as though that invalidates the rules in the league we actually play in. An endless stream of denial, deflection, and whataboutisms. 

Incredibly, these people who refuse to believe anything think it's entirely credible that the manager who worked at two EFL clubs under these rules had no idea he was sending people out to cheat when he was demanding they dress up disguised as Eastleigh players so as not to be rumbled absolutely not cheating while spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh's training ground - and that even after the objections raised by the interns he was sending to spy he still remained unaware that he was systemically breaching the rules for six months. 

It's an endless twisting reimagining of reality as a coping mechanism. There must be something in the water down here: Icke, Le Tissier, Lambert, 51% of saintsweb. Makes you think. 

It's really not complicated. Tonda oversaw six months of premeditated rule breaking, ran his operation so amateurishly that the "big secret" was not just openly known throughout the club to the point that they were sending around doctored pictures of their analysts as spies for jokes, but also known by people outside the club, with damning evidence on their devices to share with whatever regulatory body as and when they so decided. And it blew up in our faces, spectacularly. One charge of spying became three upon closer inspection. I'm not sure we've got the full tally in yet. We cheated, we got caught, we admitted it - although the club pretty disgracefully first tried to throw a lone-wolf intern under the bus, and the manager tried to weasel out of any responsibility with a pathetic lie about being ignorant of the rules - we got punished. That's it.

Was the punishment deserved? Absolutely. Proportionate? Less clear cut, but if you put yourself in that position, you've got no-one else to blame when it goes tits up. And the manager (and his coconspirators) put us in that position. That's just the reality. 

There is no version of the club's statement to move forward with "humility, accountability, and determination to put things right" that ends up with the arsonist who burned down the whole season remaining in post with a fresh box of matches. 

Let’s for one minute say that a punishment was deserved but that its proportionality was less clear cut. It was very clear cut to Gibson and his legal/media team when going public…so clear cut that the EFL and their Boro biased jury decided to not only expel Saints, but award Boro the place in the final. WTF?! Even if our expulsion is deemed fitting, how does that outcome sit comfortably with anyone? It’s tantamount to admitting to a very dodgy review process at best! Even knowledgeable neutrals are raising eyebrows. And if the review process can be considered tainted, the punishment must be placed at question - although Boro’s complete ineptitude in front of goal has thankfully somewhat addressed that particularly injustice.

[USaintA]

3 hours ago, Pilchards said:

Going to be fun thinking up a song if Tonda does indeed stay.

 

How about something like this....

 

He cheats, he spies, he tells a load of lies,

Tonda Ton....da

Tonda Ton...da!

 

He cheats, he spies, he's got some crazy eyes,

Tonda Ton...da

Tonda Ton...da!

 

He cheats, he spies, and Middlesbrough despise,

etc etc

[CB Fry]

4 hours ago, qwertyell said:

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves;  inventing their own version of the rules where if you don't win the games you were cheating on, it doesn't really count; spreading unsubstantiated gossip that our mysterious spies were not even employed by the club;  convincing themselves that we wouldn't receive any meaningful punishment as it was all a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; convincing themselves that the only reason we received such a meaningful punishment was due to a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; dreaming up conspiracies where actually we were the victims of some kind of entrapment that forced us to spy;  imagining that everyone on the independent panel and appeals panel were bought and paid for by Boro; clinging to a meaningless "Leeds precedent" from 2019 when the current rules weren't in place;  banging on endlessly about other leagues that have different rules as though that invalidates the rules in the league we actually play in. An endless stream of denial, deflection, and whataboutisms. 

Incredibly, these people who refuse to believe anything think it's entirely credible that the manager who worked at two EFL clubs under these rules had no idea he was sending people out to cheat when he was demanding they dress up disguised as Eastleigh players so as not to be rumbled absolutely not cheating while spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh's training ground - and that even after the objections raised by the interns he was sending to spy he still remained unaware that he was systemically breaching the rules for six months. 

It's an endless twisting reimagining of reality as a coping mechanism. There must be something in the water down here: Icke, Le Tissier, Lambert, 51% of saintsweb. Makes you think. 

It's really not complicated. Tonda oversaw six months of premeditated rule breaking, ran his operation so amateurishly that the "big secret" was not just openly known throughout the club to the point that they were sending around doctored pictures of their analysts as spies for jokes, but also known by people outside the club, with damning evidence on their devices to share with whatever regulatory body as and when they so decided. And it blew up in our faces, spectacularly. One charge of spying became three upon closer inspection. I'm not sure we've got the full tally in yet. We cheated, we got caught, we admitted it - although the club pretty disgracefully first tried to throw a lone-wolf intern under the bus, and the manager tried to weasel out of any responsibility with a pathetic lie about being ignorant of the rules - we got punished. That's it.

Was the punishment deserved? Absolutely. Proportionate? Less clear cut, but if you put yourself in that position, you've got no-one else to blame when it goes tits up. And the manager (and his coconspirators) put us in that position. That's just the reality. 

There is no version of the club's statement to move forward with "humility, accountability, and determination to put things right" that ends up with the arsonist who burned down the whole season remaining in post with a fresh box of matches. 

Excellent summary. 

[egg]

4 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Let’s for one minute say that a punishment was deserved but that its proportionality was less clear cut. It was very clear cut to Gibson and his legal/media team when going public…so clear cut that the EFL and their Boro biased jury decided to not only expel Saints, but award Boro the place in the final. WTF?! Even if our expulsion is deemed fitting, how does that outcome sit comfortably with anyone? It’s tantamount to admitting to a very dodgy review process at best! Even knowledgeable neutrals are raising eyebrows. And if the review process can be considered tainted, the punishment must be placed at question - although Boro’s complete ineptitude in front of goal has thankfully somewhat addressed that particularly injustice.

Literally the 1st post in response, and you emphasise his point. 

There was no "biased jury", or "dodgy review process". We pleaded guilty.

They had to give us a sporting sanction, yet there we were asking for a fine. That's after lying through our back teeth. No humility, no genuine remorse, no reality. It'd be like drink driving, initially trying to blame your mate, then putting your hands up, but asking to keep our licence.

Boro went through because we tried to get a sporting advantage against them.

As qwrrtyyell says, this is not complicated.

[Window Cleaner]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

 

As qwrrtyyell says, this is not complicated.

Smoke gets in your eyes.

[East Kent Saint]

11 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

But just what would you have us do?

Burn it all to the ground?

Would you then be happy? 

No. I thought not.

I'm all in on push back now. I'd rather be hated than submissive and rudderless, and that is what will happen. 

We will get a Pelligrino or William Still. 

And besides, when has the EFL dealt a punishment, and the FA have added to it? Show me the example. They are making this up as they go along. We'd be better served chucking some money at finding other wrong doings, go through the rule book and see what we can uncover. The football mafia are on us till a new target arises. Comply and die. Fuck that. 

 

My concern was self punishment may backfire if the FA feel they want to make a statement and add their punishment so wait and see before taking any action such as sacking the Manager !

[trousers]

6 hours ago, qwertyell said:

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves; 

Yep, definitely a fascinating insight into some of our supporters...

 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Will today be the day that Tonda is sacked and Adam Lallana is appointed?

😂

[benjii]

9 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Why would they ban him though?

I heard something about spying. 

Could just be a rumour.

Edited 2 hours ago by benjii

[benjii]

6 hours ago, qwertyell said:

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves;  inventing their own version of the rules where if you don't win the games you were cheating on, it doesn't really count; spreading unsubstantiated gossip that our mysterious spies were not even employed by the club;  convincing themselves that we wouldn't receive any meaningful punishment as it was all a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; convincing themselves that the only reason we received such a meaningful punishment was due to a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; dreaming up conspiracies where actually we were the victims of some kind of entrapment that forced us to spy;  imagining that everyone on the independent panel and appeals panel were bought and paid for by Boro; clinging to a meaningless "Leeds precedent" from 2019 when the current rules weren't in place;  banging on endlessly about other leagues that have different rules as though that invalidates the rules in the league we actually play in. An endless stream of denial, deflection, and whataboutisms. 

Incredibly, these people who refuse to believe anything think it's entirely credible that the manager who worked at two EFL clubs under these rules had no idea he was sending people out to cheat when he was demanding they dress up disguised as Eastleigh players so as not to be rumbled absolutely not cheating while spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh's training ground - and that even after the objections raised by the interns he was sending to spy he still remained unaware that he was systemically breaching the rules for six months. 

It's an endless twisting reimagining of reality as a coping mechanism. There must be something in the water down here: Icke, Le Tissier, Lambert, 51% of saintsweb. Makes you think. 

It's really not complicated. Tonda oversaw six months of premeditated rule breaking, ran his operation so amateurishly that the "big secret" was not just openly known throughout the club to the point that they were sending around doctored pictures of their analysts as spies for jokes, but also known by people outside the club, with damning evidence on their devices to share with whatever regulatory body as and when they so decided. And it blew up in our faces, spectacularly. One charge of spying became three upon closer inspection. I'm not sure we've got the full tally in yet. We cheated, we got caught, we admitted it - although the club pretty disgracefully first tried to throw a lone-wolf intern under the bus, and the manager tried to weasel out of any responsibility with a pathetic lie about being ignorant of the rules - we got punished. That's it.

Was the punishment deserved? Absolutely. Proportionate? Less clear cut, but if you put yourself in that position, you've got no-one else to blame when it goes tits up. And the manager (and his coconspirators) put us in that position. That's just the reality. 

There is no version of the club's statement to move forward with "humility, accountability, and determination to put things right" that ends up with the arsonist who burned down the whole season remaining in post with a fresh box of matches. 

Is Icke a Saints fan?

[LegalEagle]

20 minutes ago, benjii said:

I heard something about spying. 

Could just be a rumour.

What you heard?

[CB Fry]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Literally the 1st post in response, and you emphasise his point. 

There was no "biased jury", or "dodgy review process". We pleaded guilty.

They had to give us a sporting sanction, yet there we were asking for a fine. That's after lying through our back teeth. No humility, no genuine remorse, no reality. It'd be like drink driving, initially trying to blame your mate, then putting your hands up, but asking to keep our licence.

Boro went through because we tried to get a sporting advantage against them.

As qwrrtyyell says, this is not complicated.

Everyone involved is a duplicitous corrupt liar - everyone, the EFL, the independent panel, the FA to the young intern, Boro of course but also Parsons and SR - everyone is in the wrong and they all need punishment, recrimination, or just to be defied and rebelled against - fuck you EFL etc etc.

Everyone is in the wrong. Everyone.

Except one guy and you'll never believe who that is.

Edited 1 hour ago by CB Fry

[23rdSaint]

29 minutes ago, benjii said:

Is Icke a Saints fan?

Dunno but lives on the Isle of Wight

[saintant]

7 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

I hear you, but any ruling they hand down from on high will almost certainly use those words.

Quite what they had for evidence we don't know, but it clearly infuriated them, as part of Section 31 shows:

It involved far more than innocent activity and a particularly deplorable approach in its use of junior members of staff to conduct the clandestine operations at the direction of senior personnel.

It's almost as though we were hammered because we failed their "sniff test" (with their nostrils inflamed by Gibson's antics and a counsel who articulated those views), rather than because they had a sound legal basis for hammering us. It doesn't really matter any more, but it would be interesting to know how an appeal to a proper court would turn out. They might find that the decision was based more in umbrage than legality.

They can use the word integrity in football as many times as they like but most of us agree there is none these days. Just because they use the word doesn't make it so. We can either be an outlier and play to the rules (and that means all of them so no diving, feigning injury, stealing yards at throw-ins etc) or we can stand up for ourselves and play the game that everyone else does. There are too many people getting on their high horses and taking the moral high ground. They act as though football is a clean sport. It's not, it's one of the dirtiest cesspits so those who don't like the fact might be better off finding another sport. We were shat on by the punishment and I don't buy the suggestion it had to fit the crime - few if any punishments in football have ever fitted the crime so why are we treated differently.

[saintant]

7 hours ago, qwertyell said:

This whole thing has certainly been a fascinating insight into some of our supporters. 

From the beginning, they were creating their own narrative where the charges against us were no big deal and laughing at the "deluded" Middlesbrough fans who suggested otherwise; getting angry at Middlesbrough for having the temerity to catch us bang to rights spying on them;  getting angry with the EFL for charging us with multiple clear breaches of the rules;  railing against the bloody rules themselves;  inventing their own version of the rules where if you don't win the games you were cheating on, it doesn't really count; spreading unsubstantiated gossip that our mysterious spies were not even employed by the club;  convincing themselves that we wouldn't receive any meaningful punishment as it was all a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; convincing themselves that the only reason we received such a meaningful punishment was due to a media pile on orchestrated by Steve Gibson; dreaming up conspiracies where actually we were the victims of some kind of entrapment that forced us to spy;  imagining that everyone on the independent panel and appeals panel were bought and paid for by Boro; clinging to a meaningless "Leeds precedent" from 2019 when the current rules weren't in place;  banging on endlessly about other leagues that have different rules as though that invalidates the rules in the league we actually play in. An endless stream of denial, deflection, and whataboutisms. 

Incredibly, these people who refuse to believe anything think it's entirely credible that the manager who worked at two EFL clubs under these rules had no idea he was sending people out to cheat when he was demanding they dress up disguised as Eastleigh players so as not to be rumbled absolutely not cheating while spying on Ipswich at Eastleigh's training ground - and that even after the objections raised by the interns he was sending to spy he still remained unaware that he was systemically breaching the rules for six months. 

It's an endless twisting reimagining of reality as a coping mechanism. There must be something in the water down here: Icke, Le Tissier, Lambert, 51% of saintsweb. Makes you think. 

It's really not complicated. Tonda oversaw six months of premeditated rule breaking, ran his operation so amateurishly that the "big secret" was not just openly known throughout the club to the point that they were sending around doctored pictures of their analysts as spies for jokes, but also known by people outside the club, with damning evidence on their devices to share with whatever regulatory body as and when they so decided. And it blew up in our faces, spectacularly. One charge of spying became three upon closer inspection. I'm not sure we've got the full tally in yet. We cheated, we got caught, we admitted it - although the club pretty disgracefully first tried to throw a lone-wolf intern under the bus, and the manager tried to weasel out of any responsibility with a pathetic lie about being ignorant of the rules - we got punished. That's it.

Was the punishment deserved? Absolutely. Proportionate? Less clear cut, but if you put yourself in that position, you've got no-one else to blame when it goes tits up. And the manager (and his coconspirators) put us in that position. That's just the reality. 

There is no version of the club's statement to move forward with "humility, accountability, and determination to put things right" that ends up with the arsonist who burned down the whole season remaining in post with a fresh box of matches. 

<

Maybe find another sport because the shark infested waters of football are clearly not to your taste.

[benjii]

19 minutes ago, 23rdSaint said:

Dunno but lives on the Isle of Wight

Safer from the 5G / chemtrails / Jew brain lasers.

[Starksj1995]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Will today be the day that Tonda is sacked and Adam Lallana is appointed?

😂

Not a chance Lallana is appointed but he needs to be sacked 

[cadiz saint]

9 minutes ago, saintant said:

They can use the word integrity in football as many times as they like but most of us agree there is none these days. Just because they use the word doesn't make it so. We can either be an outlier and play to the rules (and that means all of them so no diving, feigning injury, stealing yards at throw-ins etc) or we can stand up for ourselves and play the game that everyone else does. There are too many people getting on their high horses and taking the moral high ground. They act as though football is a clean sport. It's not, it's one of the dirtiest cesspits so those who don't like the fact might be better off finding another sport. We were shat on by the punishment and I don't buy the suggestion it had to fit the crime - few if any punishments in football have ever fitted the crime so why are we treated differently.

100% in agreement!!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

9 hours ago, Vancouver Saint said:

I'm astonished people think he should still stay on as manager. 100% he has to go. Not just because his position is untenable, but because ignorance of the law is no defence - and it's plain dumb stupidity that in this digital age when you can observe and analyse everything he thinks the advantage of getting an (incompetent) intern to take low quality video is going to help. He and everybody else should have known the risk-reward scenario.
Yes, I think the punishment is totally out of proportion to the crime - but my business is brands and brand-building and I called this days before the final hearing that we'd be made an example of.

It takes years to build a reputation and seconds to destroy it.

Tonda, wittingly or not, has damaged our global reputation as a club for years to come.
He has to go.

Not just him, but everyone in the management team who was aware of it and did nothing about it. Them's the breaks.

As my son and fellow Saints supporter says - I've used up my emotional bandwidth with Saints - they don't deserve my support. I've been supporting them for 57 years and this is lowest point of all.
The fact we haven't sacked him already - cowards waiting for the FA to ban him and do it for us to save a few quid? - makes it even worse.
No statements from the leadership, apart from what were obvious lies now: 'he was working alone as a lone wolf'.

If we think we're going on some magical redemption arc with Tonda still at the helm next season and going on another long unbeaten run with the rags of whatever team we're left with - you're smoking stronger stuff than we get here in BC (and it's the best!)

Naturally, if someone wants to re-post this next year after we've been promoted Champions under Eckert's leadership I will happily eat massive humble pie.🙃

Without wanting to sound like a smart Alec, having "global reputation" doesn't put silverware in the cabinet. We've blown our image for decades so we might as well draw up the drawbridge and do what is best for us and that involves keeping a manager who yes made a mistake, but did something which is completely legal in his homeland.

[CB Fry]

7 minutes ago, saintant said:

<

Maybe find another sport because the shark infested waters of football are clearly not to your taste.

You're not one of those bawling their eyes out about a lawyer who a decade ago did some work for Middlesbrough in an employment dispute, are you?

[saintant]

It seems some people are happy to grade cheating but it's pretty black and white. Diving to try to win a free kick or penalty, feigning injury, fouling, shirt pulling - they are all cheating so if you don't like cheating then why are you watching football?

[Lighthouse]

Just now, saintant said:

It seems some people are happy to grade cheating but it's pretty black and white. Diving to try to win a free kick or penalty, feigning injury, fouling, shirt pulling - they are all cheating so if you don't like cheating then why are you watching football?

If you get caught diving to win a penalty, do you get to then keep that penalty?

[saintant]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

You're not one of those bawling their eyes out about a lawyer who a decade ago did some work for Middlesbrough in an employment dispute, are you?

No idea what you're on about.