Jack Stephens - Saint or Sinner?

[wild-saint]

4 hours ago, skintsaint said:

One of the most pathetic bits of defending I've seen in a while from a top flight defender last night for Villas pen. Committed himself in Sunday league style letting Watkins breeze by him at the byline. Just needed to stand him up and he does that 😄. Game time or not that was wank.

Don’t agree at all. When he got out jumped by Jack Grealish for a free header 8 yards out almost scoring was worse in my opinion. How tall is JG by the way?

[Pilchards]

Conceded 7 goals in his last 90 minutes for Saints.  Not great!

[gordonToo]

For me he just doesn't read the game well enough at this level.  I remember him ball watching and allowing Andy Carrol an easy goal on his debut and the lack of awareness is still there unfortunately.

[Toussaint]

Still a saint for me. 

[nta786]

I reckon he’s going to be a bit like Yoshida was now: 

not good enough to be a top 10 PL centreback, but also at the same time needs a run of games in a row before showing some competence- throwing in him as we did means he will always display some rustiness.

 

[Saint Garrett]

He's poor and not really good enough to play in the premier league, but he has passion  and was fine for us last, but playing at the peak of his ability. Wouldn't surprise me if he is off in January.

[Avenue_Saint]

Keeps switching off. Can’t read the game. 

Last of the remaining weak links left in the squad.

Edited 3 November, 2020 by Avenue_Saint

[DT]

We should keep him for absolute emergencies and cup games. Hasn't got the temperament or skill for this league.

[The Cat]

Might have been a bit different for him playing with Vestergaard as I'm not sure he's done that very often due to Bednarek being virtually ever present. 

This doesn't account for routine mistakes but worth bearing in mind that building up a partnership at CB is very important. Stephens had previously done that with Bednarek and they had some decent games together.

[HarvSFC]

Was dropped after the Burnley defeat on the opening day last season. Came back in following some match in October which I cannot quite remember and seemingly never looked back. He impressed me a lot at times last season, may have been because the previous standards were so low, but I genuinely didn't think he looked out of place in what was a good team in the second part of the campaign. I was hoping to see the more of the same this season, but he has seemingly reverted back to the old player we all knew. Now, Vestergaard is seemingly going through the same process, of previously looking quite abysmal, dropped out of the starting eleven, brought back into the team to replace another following a heavy defeat and now is not putting a foot wrong.

It's quite strange. Maybe they will cycle through the process now, or Salisu is being turned into a rock with whatever Ralph is using when they're on the sidelines that is making them improve.

Edited 3 November, 2020 by HarvSFC

[Toadhall Saint]

Might just be me but I think he is looking a bit heavier than in project restart games.

[John B]

2 hours ago, DT said:

We should keep him for absolute emergencies and cup games. Hasn't got the temperament or skill for this league.

Why do you expect him to come in play very well after not playing for some time

[skintsaint]

8 hours ago, John B said:

Why do you expect him to come in play very well after not playing for some time

Just even if he did the basics right would do.

[John B]

5 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Just even if he did the basics right would do.

Well he must be doing something right as he is probably earning at least a million a year 

[skintsaint]

2 hours ago, John B said:

Well he must be doing something right as he is probably earning at least a million a year 

same agent as Forecast I'm guessing.

[Toussaint]

I'd be happy to see him return to the team as a starter, as many have pointed out we lack leadership, we lack a vocal input and we lack players with resilience. He has all of those. He never gets a run, he is really not that bad when he plays regularly. If there is a clamour ro play Ketchup and Salissu, why not play him in the middle if we are going for a 3? 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

35 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I'd be happy to see him return to the team as a starter, as many have pointed out we lack leadership, we lack a vocal input and we lack players with resilience. He has all of those. He never gets a run, he is really not that bad when he plays regularly. If there is a clamour ro play Ketchup and Salissu, why not play him in the middle if we are going for a 3? 

 

I think I’ve found the flaw in your argument.

[Saint Garrett]

28 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I'd be happy to see him return to the team as a starter, as many have pointed out we lack leadership, we lack a vocal input and we lack players with resilience. He has all of those. He never gets a run, he is really not that bad when he plays regularly. If there is a clamour ro play Ketchup and Salissu, why not play him in the middle if we are going for a 3? 

 

The whole CB situation is a bit of a mess lets be honest. The flip flop between 2 and 3 CB's, the change in partnerships, and the change in front of them, is tough.  In a 4222 we lack protection for the CB's, but 3atb we look all over the place, and cannot get up the pitch to give the defence an opportunity to step up.  We also don't need 7 CB's. Problem is you can make a case for all of them to start, but not one of them would be first team on the teamsheet.

• Stephens - Poor player, if we're relying on him after more than 5 years of him being in and around the first team we are struggling big time. He wouldn't get in any other premier league side, and if he's in there it says very little for our recruitment
• Bednarek - Consistently proven to not be good enough to play in this league. Makes too many mistakes, loses his man, not great on the ball
• Salisu - Immense the first half of last season, had a bit of a shocker since about March when the whole team went down hill. Clearly has the talent, but needs a strong partner.
• Bella-Kotchap - Fans clamouring for him - lets be honest we have no idea whether he's good enough, but surely he's better then the others or we wouldn't have bought him. Seems to be very highly rated?
• Valery - Has come a long a lot in the last 12 months as a CB, but still nowhere near good enough for this league.
• Lyanco - I like him, I think I'd have him starting in a 3, but he is rash and needs to learn when to get involved and when to not.
• Simeu - Loan I'd expect - was he bought in last season to encourage Broja and Tino to join, ala Bleidelis?

 

[beatlesaint]

I cant believe we have reached the 22/23 season, the club have spent more money this summer than in many a year yet we still have to talk about Jack Stephens. Should have got rid years ago, but no, we give him a new bloody contract which is hushed up out of total embarrassment by the club.   

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

The whole CB situation is a bit of a mess lets be honest. The flip flop between 2 and 3 CB's, the change in partnerships, and the change in front of them, is tough.  In a 4222 we lack protection for the CB's, but 3atb we look all over the place, and cannot get up the pitch to give the defence an opportunity to step up.  We also don't need 7 CB's. Problem is you can make a case for all of them to start, but not one of them would be first team on the teamsheet.

• Stephens - Poor player, if we're relying on him after more than 5 years of him being in and around the first team we are struggling big time. He wouldn't get in any other premier league side, and if he's in there it says very little for our recruitment
• Bednarek - Consistently proven to not be good enough to play in this league. Makes too many mistakes, loses his man, not great on the ball
• Salisu - Immense the first half of last season, had a bit of a shocker since about March when the whole team went down hill. Clearly has the talent, but needs a strong partner.
• Bella-Kotchap - Fans clamouring for him - lets be honest we have no idea whether he's good enough, but surely he's better then the others or we wouldn't have bought him. Seems to be very highly rated?
• Valery - Has come a long a lot in the last 12 months as a CB, but still nowhere near good enough for this league.
• Lyanco - I like him, I think I'd have him starting in a 3, but he is rash and needs to learn when to get involved and when to not.
• Simeu - Loan I'd expect - was he bought in last season to encourage Broja and Tino to join, ala Bleidelis?

 

Terrible really isnt it. 7 centre backs and the only decent one hasn't had a good game in 5 months. Are they all shite or is it how they are coached and set up?

Edited 9 August, 2022 by Turkish

[Dell McDellFace]

Jason Denayer is available on a free after his release from Lyon and would be a solid partner for Salisu. Fulham are interested and I guess we would have to let some players go before signing another CB.

Jack Stephens is one of those players that you really want to do well because he has a lot about him. For me it's not so much the occasional lapse of focus, but the inability to recover that lets him down. He would be a solid championship player and at this stage of his career should be a regular starter, so maybe a step down would be a good move for him.

[beatlesaint]

7 minutes ago, Dell McDellFace said:

Jack Stephens is one of those players that you really want to do well because he has a lot about him. For me it's not so much the occasional lapse of focus, but the inability to recover that lets him down. He would be a solid championship player and at this stage of his career should be a regular starter, so maybe a step down would be a good move for him.

and for us ! 😂

[Toussaint]

58 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I think I’ve found the flaw in your argument.

The not that bad bit, or the  playing regularly bit?

[Toussaint]

38 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Terrible really isnt it. 7 centre backs and the only decent one hasn't had a good game in 5 months. Are they all shite or is it how they are coached and set up?

It's not just the set up, it's the AWOL midfield under Ralph Ball (unless that's what you meant by set up). As one example, away at Villa last season, (I was there and had a good view). For whatever reason we had no right midfield cover for Peraud when defending, Peraud was continually 2 two or 3 men, one of the CB's would come across to cover, leaving a massive gap at CB, then boom, goal conceded, whilst the midfielders were racing back downfield behind play.  Peraud was dropped after that, but none of it was his fault IMO.

There are plenty of other examples, Chelsea at home, the  midfield 2  +  2 were lined up in front of each other, leaving acres on the wings.  

[S-Clarke]

2 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

The whole CB situation is a bit of a mess lets be honest. The flip flop between 2 and 3 CB's, the change in partnerships, and the change in front of them, is tough.  In a 4222 we lack protection for the CB's, but 3atb we look all over the place, and cannot get up the pitch to give the defence an opportunity to step up.  We also don't need 7 CB's. Problem is you can make a case for all of them to start, but not one of them would be first team on the teamsheet.

• Stephens - Poor player, if we're relying on him after more than 5 years of him being in and around the first team we are struggling big time. He wouldn't get in any other premier league side, and if he's in there it says very little for our recruitment
• Bednarek - Consistently proven to not be good enough to play in this league. Makes too many mistakes, loses his man, not great on the ball
• Salisu - Immense the first half of last season, had a bit of a shocker since about March when the whole team went down hill. Clearly has the talent, but needs a strong partner.
• Bella-Kotchap - Fans clamouring for him - lets be honest we have no idea whether he's good enough, but surely he's better then the others or we wouldn't have bought him. Seems to be very highly rated?
• Valery - Has come a long a lot in the last 12 months as a CB, but still nowhere near good enough for this league.
• Lyanco - I like him, I think I'd have him starting in a 3, but he is rash and needs to learn when to get involved and when to not.
• Simeu - Loan I'd expect - was he bought in last season to encourage Broja and Tino to join, ala Bleidelis?

 

It's a bit of a mess. Stephens isn't a good player, I know fans clamour for him because of his passion and all that stuff, but just watch him positionally for a game. Inept is the only way you can sum him up. Gets pulled all over the place, has no idea where to be. Not a PL CB, never has been, yet for some reason he's existed here for many years.

Bednarek is pretty tosh, but he's also a victim of the setup in the sense of how exposed he is. He's very slow, not very mobile, so when the midfield gets done and the oppo are running directly at him he will look like Bambi on ice. Because he hasn't got pace, and he knows that, he commits early to try and win the ball and often ends up on his arse and makes us even more exposed. He also struggles in the box against quick players who turn, due to his lack of agility he can get done very quickly over a short space. What happens then is you've got Salisu as the last line of defence as the only one with pace.

Salisu has the right attributes, pace, height, strength. But lacks experience at times, it feels like he needs a bit of guidance through some situations but a lot of the time it feels like we put all our eggs in the Salisu basket as he is the last line of defence once Bednarek is left on a heap on the floor.

Bella-Kotchap is another one with the right attributes, but obviously experience is going to be an issue here. Salisu and ABK as a pair 'could' be ok, but there will also be some pretty horrible moments born out of inexperience. Obviously, you only get experience one way and that's by playing, so I'd still be tempted to pair him with Salisu.

Valery isn't a CB. End of.

Lyanco shouldn't have been signed. Really annoyed by that signing to be honest, we should have been a bit wiser and got a loan for the season or something. He's too rash for this league.

Simeu will be one who lives out on loan I imagine. I don't see the problem with us signing a freebie player to bolster the u23's, but he looks like a decent lower league player to me and nothing more.

So, we certainly could do with one more once we shift a couple out. Someone mid 20's with a bit of experience would be ideal. I know people talk of Bednarek and Stephens offering the experience, but they're very limited players so it doesn't really help a great deal.

[disconnect]

Surprised a good Championship side hasnt tried to buy Stephens - he'd do well in the Championship and we'd probably sell him for 5-10m which would serve someone very well. He's not quite prem level, and it's no good having 5 or 6 Championship level centre backs, when we just need 2 possibly 3 more premium level centre backs. 

Got hopes that Salisu can recover his form and ABK hits the ground running. Still think Lyanco can be coached into a good player for us - he's starting at a higher basic level than Stephens anyway.

[Appy]

1 minute ago, disconnect said:

Surprised a good Championship side hasnt tried to buy Stephens - he'd do well in the Championship and we'd probably sell him for 5-10m which would serve someone very well. He's not quite prem level, and it's no good having 5 or 6 Championship level centre backs, when we just need 2 possibly 3 more premium level centre backs. 

Got hopes that Salisu can recover his form and ABK hits the ground running. Still think Lyanco can be coached into a good player for us - he's starting at a higher basic level than Stephens anyway.

Good championship teams probably realise he is shit, so that’s a stumbling block. 

[SNSUN]

4 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

I cant believe we have reached the 22/23 season, the club have spent more money this summer than in many a year yet we still have to talk about Jack Stephens. Should have got rid years ago, but no, we give him a new bloody contract which is hushed up out of total embarrassment by the club.   

Meanwhile a team that was probably going to be a direct rival in a relegation battle, Everton, have signed Coady and Tarkowski, either of whom would instantly improve our defence, for the grand sum of nothing, just wages. 
 

Our defence has been crap for months and we’ve signed one CB that didn’t even get a game on Saturday. If don’t care how many CBs we have, we need another and we need one with match experience.

[Chez]

6 hours ago, disconnect said:

Surprised a good Championship side hasnt tried to buy Stephens - he'd do well in the Championship and we'd probably sell him for 5-10m which would serve someone very well. He's not quite prem level

Maybe championship clubs don't want to spend £50k a week or maybe a few quid more on him? 

He seems happy here. So he isn't going to move for less money and prestige.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Chez said:

Maybe championship clubs don't want to spend £50k a week or maybe a few quid more on him? 

He seems happy here. So he isn't going to move for less money and prestige.

Course he’s happy here he’s earning way above his ability level and has just signed another deal to set him up for life. 

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, SNSUN said:

Meanwhile a team that was probably going to be a direct rival in a relegation battle, Everton, have signed Coady and Tarkowski, either of whom would instantly improve our defence, for the grand sum of nothing, just wages. 
 

Our defence has been crap for months and we’ve signed one CB that didn’t even get a game on Saturday. If don’t care how many CBs we have, we need another and we need one with match experience.

Months? Years mate. We’ve been in the worst 4 defences in the premier league for the last 3 season. Weve for 7 centre halves in the first team squad and one decent one who hasn’t had a good game since March. What a shambles.

[Turkish]

10 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

It's a bit of a mess. Stephens isn't a good player, I know fans clamour for him because of his passion and all that stuff, but just watch him positionally for a game. Inept is the only way you can sum him up. Gets pulled all over the place, has no idea where to be. Not a PL CB, never has been, yet for some reason he's existed here for many years.

Bednarek is pretty tosh, but he's also a victim of the setup in the sense of how exposed he is. He's very slow, not very mobile, so when the midfield gets done and the oppo are running directly at him he will look like Bambi on ice. Because he hasn't got pace, and he knows that, he commits early to try and win the ball and often ends up on his arse and makes us even more exposed. He also struggles in the box against quick players who turn, due to his lack of agility he can get done very quickly over a short space. What happens then is you've got Salisu as the last line of defence as the only one with pace.

Salisu has the right attributes, pace, height, strength. But lacks experience at times, it feels like he needs a bit of guidance through some situations but a lot of the time it feels like we put all our eggs in the Salisu basket as he is the last line of defence once Bednarek is left on a heap on the floor.

Bella-Kotchap is another one with the right attributes, but obviously experience is going to be an issue here. Salisu and ABK as a pair 'could' be ok, but there will also be some pretty horrible moments born out of inexperience. Obviously, you only get experience one way and that's by playing, so I'd still be tempted to pair him with Salisu.

Valery isn't a CB. End of.

Lyanco shouldn't have been signed. Really annoyed by that signing to be honest, we should have been a bit wiser and got a loan for the season or something. He's too rash for this league.

Simeu will be one who lives out on loan I imagine. I don't see the problem with us signing a freebie player to bolster the u23's, but he looks like a decent lower league player to me and nothing more.

So, we certainly could do with one more once we shift a couple out. Someone mid 20's with a bit of experience would be ideal. I know people talk of Bednarek and Stephens offering the experience, but they're very limited players so it doesn't really help a great deal.

Bella-Kotchap might turn out to be the new Ferdinand but more chance he won’t so as things stand how many of those 7 get in another premier league team? Salisu so some of the bottom half ones probably that’s it. Shocking really

[Saint_clark]

16 hours ago, Toussaint said:

The not that bad bit, or the  playing regularly bit?

Not bad when playing regularly. The ONLY times he's looked really good is when he's come back into the side after a long absence. When he gets an extended run his form nosedives pretty rapidly.

 

[Dorchester Saint]

There should be a third option:

 

SHITE 

[Toussaint]

2 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Not bad when playing regularly. The ONLY times he's looked really good is when he's come back into the side after a long absence. When he gets an extended run his form nosedives pretty rapidly.

 

I’m not sure he nosedives, what I notice with Jack is he’ll have a few solid games and then makes a howler or two, the the process repeats, or he gets dropped and we don’t see him for weeks. 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, Toussaint said:

I’m not sure he nosedives, what I notice with Jack is he’ll have a few solid games and then makes a howler or two, the the process repeats, or he gets dropped and we don’t see him for weeks. 

as with most. of our CBs, they have a few games where they are not exposed and found out, then they are and we see how good they really are...not that good. They are often not helped by our formation, tactics and personnel in front, but individually they come up short too. We've seemingly decided in recent times that being a good header of the ball is not necessary. 

[Turkish]

4 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Not bad when playing regularly. The ONLY times he's looked really good is when he's come back into the side after a long absence. When he gets an extended run his form nosedives pretty rapidly.

 

exactly. Much like a league one player that can occasionally raise his game for a big cup tie, when Stephens comes back into the side he generally does okay for the first couple of games but then quickly reverts to type, he's done this over and over again throughout his career.

[Matthew Le God]

 

 

[SuperSAINT]

16 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

 

Loan with option wouldn’t be useful to us.

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

 

Why haven't you started a thread about Jack Stephens transfer saga?

[Matthew Le God]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Why haven't you started a thread about Jack Stephens transfer saga?

You've just posted in it.

[Chez]

4 hours ago, SuperSAINT said:

Loan with option wouldn’t be useful to us.

possibly saves us about £2.5m in wages. How much do you think the transfer fee is likely to be?

[Baird of the land]

Hopefully they can negotiate some sort of loan with obligation(If they get promoted etc)

[Turkish]

Any volunteers to drive him up there?

[Give it to Ron]

51 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Any volunteers to drive him up there?

Sorry am booked for McCarthy to United

[Killers Knee]

Loan with option, we might need him in the Championship ourselves

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, Killers Knee said:

Loan with option, we might need him in the Championship ourselves

We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it, plus we’ve already got plenty of Championship standard players. Sell him.

[Dark Munster]

2 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

Sorry am booked for McCarthy to United

[david in sweden]

13 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We’ll cross that bridge if we come to it, plus we’ve already got plenty of Championship standard players. Sell him.

Hard for Jack to get established and being taken into the team

after the departure of Fonte and VvD he was on a hiding to nothing.

He never really made the grade as a Prem.CB but may well be a better defender if he drops down a division. Like Romeu his options are limited when getting closer to 30. He has given some good displays but the lack of consistency is noticeable when he only comes in for occasional games.

All things considered he has come through the Academy and likely had more game time compared to others in his generation (except JWP of course ).

A move would be a win-win situation.

[Whitey Grandad]

47 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

Hard for Jack to get established and being taken into the team

after the departure of Fonte and VvD he was on a hiding to nothing.

He never really made the grade as a Prem.CB but may well be a better defender if he drops down a division. Like Romeu his options are limited when getting closer to 30. He has given some good displays but the lack of consistency is noticeable when he only comes in for occasional games.

All things considered he has come through the Academy and likely had more game time compared to others in his generation (except JWP of course ).

A move would be a win-win situation.

There’s a reason for that.