James Ward-Prowse

[southamptonfc]

I haven't seen anything from JWP in the past to suggest he can be the attacking midfielder we need. His shooting from open play has been poor, the weakest aspect of his game.

The change in formation gave us the element of surprise against Everton. Time and time again he was left in too much space just outside their box. After watching the replays, Aston Villa wont make the same mistake.

[OldNick]

15 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Jones had come in earlier he’d probably have made the World Cup squad. 

Who? Jones, I doubt it as he's Welsh. There again if he was a right back ten he'd be a shoe in. As for JWP he did not deserve to go at that time.

Perhaps NJ has foundthe perfect role for him as his goal at Everton was something special

[Saint86]

16 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Jones had come in earlier he’d probably have made the World Cup squad. 

Imagine it would have very little bearing as Jones wouldn't have been able to magically heal Lavia's hamstring to free JWP from defensive midfield duties, and similarly he wouldn't have been able to do anything about the quality of Diallo or an unfit AMN as our only other central midfield options. I don't get this new narrative that JWP wasn't previously being used in an attacking sense - for years he's been making runs off the attackers, turning up at the edge of the box to whip in crosses, or arriving late into the box for shooting chances etc. He's been adding open play goals and chance creation to his game for a couple of seasons now. For example, 21/22 he contributed 132 shot creating actions, which was more than in 20/21 (where he created 105), which is a significant season on season increase despite missing games due to suspension. Although I acknowledge that it will be a more marked impact if Jones continues to use him as a proper #10.

This is how he rates for the prem over the past 365days - Playing in a struggling side. Nearly 4 shot creating actions (91st percentile) isn't bad for a player who has been playing a more defensive role for most of this season (half the time period).

Regardless, his (and saint's) uptick in form coincides exactly with having Lavia (an actual midfield anchor) back to fitness and available. Numerous fans had stated the need to get CDM cover this window as second only to strengthening the attack - and that is due to the recognised importance of the lavia/romeu role for defensive cover. If anything, i'm surprised by the number of people remarking on his miraculous uptick in form - he wasn't playing badly, he was just out of position which nullified his attacking output - he was surely always going to struggle in an attacking sense when being held back in a more defensive role?! 🤷‍♂️.

Also re the England squad. Sadly i don't think it would have made that much difference how well JWP was playing - Southgate doesn't fancy him for whatever reason, maybe its big club bias, maybe he just doesn't rate him that highly. But best case, i think Southgate would have maybe picked him and not played him (as per Maddison). The reality is that Southgate is not a good manager and is tactically very limited. This is even more the case if his reasoning can't differentiate the difference between a player's form and a player being played out of position. Ultimately the guy picked Kalvin Philips over JWP - So enough said in that regard sadly. Maybe if Prowsey moves to a "big club" he'll make the euros who knows.

Edited 18 January, 2023 by Saint86

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, OldNick said:

As for JWP he did not deserve to go at that time.

Perhaps NJ has foundthe perfect role for him as his goal at Everton was something special

No he didn’t, which is the exact point I was making. Had he stated the season as he played the last 2 games, he probably would have done seeing as Southgate doesn’t appear to rate Madison 

As for people trying to make out he’d have played the same position for Ralph given the same player’s available, I’m calling pony. He never played as far forward even when everyone was fit. Hence the title of this thread. Looks like dear old Ralph missed a trick and the cult are rewriting their bible. 

[OldNick]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

Also re the England squad. Sadly i don't think it would have made that much difference how well JWP was playing - Southgate doesn't fancy him for whatever reason, maybe its big club bias, maybe he just doesn't rate him that highly. But best case, i think Southgate would have maybe picked him and not played him (as per Maddison). The reality is that Southgate is not a good manager and is tactically very limited. This is even more the case if his reasoning can't differentiate the difference between a player's form and a player being played out of position. Ultimately the guy picked Kalvin Philips over JWP - So enough said in that regard sadly. Maybe if Prowsey moves to a "big club" he'll make the euros who knows.

For me, if JWP flourishes in the more attacking running past the attacker role, there could well be a place for him in the England team. Whether he can push out the players there that is a problem for him

[Weston Super Saint]

18 hours ago, Saint86 said:

 

Also re the England squad. Sadly i don't think it would have made that much difference how well JWP was playing - Southgate doesn't fancy him for whatever reason, 

Maybe you should send him some xX stats.  You know, really stick it to the man.  That'll learn him.

Edit : Not sure why we need a whole new thread to discuss JWP's new role which could easily have been added to the JWP thread already running...

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Weston Super Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

WTF is this pony? 
 

Wanking material for Billy Beane wannabes. Fuck me, we made do with the tennis bird scratching her arse. 
 

 

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[Saint Garrett]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

WTF is this pony? 
 

Wanking material for Billy Beane wannabes. Fuck me, we made do with the tennis bird scratching her arse. 
 

 

We get it, you don’t like stats. Some people find them useful. 

IMO, the more data the better along with everything else gives you a more rounded opinion. 

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Maybe you should send him some xX stats.  You know, really stick it to the man.  That'll learn him.

Edit : Not sure why we need a whole new thread to discuss JWP's new role which could easily have been added to the JWP thread already running...

I agree, but nothing to do with me... 😅🙈

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Saint86

[Saint86]

Ducky, you may not like stats / think they're animals from the forest. But probably one of the key points there is that he is averaging nearly 4 shot creating actions per 90min over the past year, despite playing in a struggling side, and despite being "held back" by Ralph for the first half of this season.

For comparison, i was looking at Jackson the other day (who plays for a better team relative to their league, generally as a winger / sometimes CF, and often an impact sub) and he was averaging approx. 1 per 90min.

Its been levelled at jwp a lot on here that he doesn't impact our attacking play, or that his passing is poor etc. But equally its been said (admittingly less often) that he offers some great attacking plays that go unnoticed by the fans. i.e. lots of good cross field diagonals and through balls etc. that the fan's don't notice because ultimately they're falling to Che (or edozi a couple of times lately), and they get spaffed into the crowd... and the fans tend to then remember the misses rather than the creative play behind them.

We all know that he's a good player in the press, harrying the midfield, interceptions etc. But the stats do also show that he contributes significantly in an attacking sense as well 

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Saint86

[Pamplemousse]

19 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

No he didn’t, which is the exact point I was making. Had he stated the season as he played the last 2 games, he probably would have done seeing as Southgate doesn’t appear to rate Madison 

As for people trying to make out he’d have played the same position for Ralph given the same player’s available, I’m calling pony. He never played as far forward even when everyone was fit. Hence the title of this thread. Looks like dear old Ralph missed a trick and the cult are rewriting their bible. 

JWP wouldn't be half the player he was now if it wasn't for Ralph. Weren't we going to sell him to Watford?

The fact is Romeu and JWP was one of our best midfield Premier League partnerships of all time and that is down to Ralph.

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Pamplemousse

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

48 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

JWP wouldn't be half the player he was now if it wasn't for Ralph. Weren't we going to sell him to Watford?

The fact is Romeu and JWP was one of our best midfield Premier League partnerships of all time and that is down to Ralph.

I think this speaks more of how we've not had a set partnership for large periods. In the early 2000's Svensson and Oakley were good, but the likes of Prutton and Delap didn't necessarily provide quality. For me the gold standard is Schneiderlin and Wanyama, and noone comes massively close. Steven Davis helped the Romeu and JWP partnership in the early days, and there were points were I preferred Hojbjerg and Romeu to JWP.

[Mosin]

1 minute ago, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

I think this speaks more of how we've not had a set partnership for large periods. In the early 2000's Svensson and Oakley were good, but the likes of Prutton and Delap didn't necessarily provide quality. For me the gold standard is Schneiderlin and Wanyama, and noone comes massively close. Steven Davis helped the Romeu and JWP partnership in the early days, and there were points were I preferred Hojbjerg and Romeu to JWP.

Didnt wanyama and scheiderlin not have Davis and half the time JWP too, cork, clasie and OR?  they all had time between them in our 4231 formation under RK. its fair to say the current JWP is a better player now than any of them was. Was jwp / davis  wanyama / cork / OR and Clasie and scheiderlin not our most used formation  ( 4231 ) and team? over RKs time as manager? I actually thought our defense during RK time and our attacking areas was our strongest areas under RK, wanyama couldnt pass 5 yards half the time but was a good tackler and strong, but was slow. OR defo over wanyama and Morgan as DM and even though Davis was better than jwp when jwp was a young player, jwp is defo a better player at 29 than sd was for us at 29.....
 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

WTF is this pony? 
 

Wanking material for Billy Beane wannabes. Fuck me, we made do with the tennis bird scratching her arse. 
 

 

Fiona Walker, née Butler. One for the grannyphiles,

Fill your boots (or anything else that comes to hand

 

Edited 19 January, 2023 by Whitey Grandad

[Saint Garrett]

https://www.englandfootball.com/articles/2023/Jan/19/james-ward-prowse-if-i-could-interview-20230119
 

Nice interview with our skipper. 

[Saint_clark]

On 18/01/2023 at 12:52, Saint86 said:

Imagine it would have very little bearing as Jones wouldn't have been able to magically heal Lavia's hamstring to free JWP from defensive midfield duties, and similarly he wouldn't have been able to do anything about the quality of Diallo or an unfit AMN as our only other central midfield options. I don't get this new narrative that JWP wasn't previously being used in an attacking sense - for years he's been making runs off the attackers, turning up at the edge of the box to whip in crosses, or arriving late into the box for shooting chances etc. He's been adding open play goals and chance creation to his game for a couple of seasons now. For example, 21/22 he contributed 132 shot creating actions, which was more than in 20/21 (where he created 105), which is a significant season on season increase despite missing games due to suspension. Although I acknowledge that it will be a more marked impact if Jones continues to use him as a proper #10.

This is how he rates for the prem over the past 365days - Playing in a struggling side. Nearly 4 shot creating actions (91st percentile) isn't bad for a player who has been playing a more defensive role for most of this season (half the time period).

Regardless, his (and saint's) uptick in form coincides exactly with having Lavia (an actual midfield anchor) back to fitness and available. Numerous fans had stated the need to get CDM cover this window as second only to strengthening the attack - and that is due to the recognised importance of the lavia/romeu role for defensive cover. If anything, i'm surprised by the number of people remarking on his miraculous uptick in form - he wasn't playing badly, he was just out of position which nullified his attacking output - he was surely always going to struggle in an attacking sense when being held back in a more defensive role?! 🤷‍♂️.

Also re the England squad. Sadly i don't think it would have made that much difference how well JWP was playing - Southgate doesn't fancy him for whatever reason, maybe its big club bias, maybe he just doesn't rate him that highly. But best case, i think Southgate would have maybe picked him and not played him (as per Maddison). The reality is that Southgate is not a good manager and is tactically very limited. This is even more the case if his reasoning can't differentiate the difference between a player's form and a player being played out of position. Ultimately the guy picked Kalvin Philips over JWP - So enough said in that regard sadly. Maybe if Prowsey moves to a "big club" he'll make the euros who knows.

Where do you get those stats from out of interest? Is it a free or paid platform? I'd like to take a look at a few things.

[SambaMaverick]

7 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Where do you get those stats from out of interest? Is it a free or paid platform? I'd like to take a look at a few things.

It's FBRef, free

[Saint_clark]

44 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said:

It's FBRef, free

Much appreciated.

[saintscottofthenortham]

 

[Saint Shady]

Anyone think he’ll stay if we’re relegated?

[stevy777_x]

45 minutes ago, Saint Shady said:

Anyone think he’ll stay if we’re relegated?

Nope he won t

[Saint_clark]

Really hope he gets two more freekicks before the season is over, would proper piss me off to have to hear the commentary when "Liverpools/Tottenhams/Man Uniteds" James Ward-Prowse sets the new record. 

[Saint Shady]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Really hope he gets two more freekicks before the season is over, would proper piss me off to have to hear the commentary when "Liverpools/Tottenhams/Man Uniteds" James Ward-Prowse sets the new record. 

I really hope he sets the record with us. Although as soon as he moves somewhere else saints will be forgotten by the media. Especially once he’s scored a fk for another club. You never know tho he may still turn out to be one of the rare loyal ones and stay 🤞🏻

[Singapore Saint]

2 hours ago, Saint Shady said:

Anyone think he’ll stay if we’re relegated?

I think he will. He knows relegation is his fault, especially being captain, as much as anyone else's and he will stay to help get us back up as soon as possible. He's not in the England team anyway so his playing chances won't be affected. Of course the freekick record is a consideration but I sense he's the loyal type and genuinely loves the club. He would have left already (for Aston Villa or another club) if he didn't love Saints. So yeah, I think he'll stay.

[Saint_clark]

28 minutes ago, Singapore Saint said:

I think he will. He knows relegation is his fault, especially being captain, as much as anyone else's and he will stay to help get us back up as soon as possible. He's not in the England team anyway so his playing chances won't be affected. Of course the freekick record is a consideration but I sense he's the loyal type and genuinely loves the club. He would have left already (for Aston Villa or another club) if he didn't love Saints. So yeah, I think he'll stay.

Difficult one. I can see there being the thinking of he'll give us one season down there to get back up, but he'll be almost 30 at that point if he does and unlikely to get a move back to the top flight then. If we go down he's either got to move then or commit to spending his entire career with us, really (which in his own head he may well have already done). 

[Saint Shady]

He seems like a genuinely decent guy so wouldn’t surprise me if he wanted to stay with us and help us get promoted back up. Demand for him will be at its highest in the summer if we go down tho so if he does stay I would think he’d stay for good. Assuming the club don’t actively try to sell him.
 

Seeing as he’s the saints poster boy and our most important player I would like to think we’d want to keep him regardless. We will lose a lot of players going down to the championship but losing him would be damaging. Not just to the dressing room but to the fans as well.

[bangkoksaint]

Not a cat in hells chance he’s staying!! Why would he? He’s a professional looking to maximise his playing and earning potential during a limited career life span. Yes he’s been part of the charade this season but I certainly don’t blame him. I honestly think he loves the club but for his own career it’d be bonkers to stay. 
 

I now hope I have to eat large wedges of humble pie when he leads us back up next season!!

[Saint Matty 76]

Don't think there's any chance he'd stay. I think he'd have a good shot at getting a Newcastle, Liverpool or Tottenham move. Anything lower than that would be a bit depressing.

[Toussaint]

32 minutes ago, bangkoksaint said:

Not a cat in hells chance he’s staying!! Why would he? He’s a professional looking to maximise his playing and earning potential during a limited career life span. Yes he’s been part of the charade this season but I certainly don’t blame him. I honestly think he loves the club but for his own career it’d be bonkers to stay. 
 

I now hope I have to eat large wedges of humble pie when he leads us back up next season!!

Agree with everything apart from the bold bit, he has got us our last 6 points. He may have lost some form earlier in the season, but his life was made very difficult under Ralph's failed loony ball system, ironically he was better under NJ. His goals also kept us up last season.

If he leaves, I'm sure he will, he will go with my blessing. We are lucky to have kept him this long.

[egg]

31 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

Don't think there's any chance he'd stay. I think he'd have a good shot at getting a Newcastle, Liverpool or Tottenham move. Anything lower than that would be a bit depressing.

I can see him at Chelsea, I don't think he'll move up north. Cobham to Otterbourne is commutable.

[Saint Fan CaM]

36 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

Don't think there's any chance he'd stay. I think he'd have a good shot at getting a Newcastle, Liverpool or Tottenham move. Anything lower than that would be a bit depressing.

With all respect to JWP I don’t think he’d get an offer from a top of the table club unless it’s to sit on the bench and see out his career.  Just don’t think he offers enough to be considered a starter in a top team. I personally hope he continues to be loyal to Saints - kids nowadays have little enough to be proud of in terms of legacy and having footballing hero’s.

[Saint Matty 76]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

I can see him at Chelsea, I don't think he'll move up north. Cobham to Otterbourne is commutable.

I'd feel far more worried about Chelsea picking up the other, better midfielder we currently posses. I think they'll be looking for a more defensive minded player to take some of that stress away from Enzo.

2 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

With all respect to JWP I don’t think he’d get an offer from a top of the table club unless it’s to sit on the bench and see out his career.  Just don’t think he offers enough to be considered a starter in a top team. I personally hope he continues to be loyal to Saints - kids nowadays have little enough to be proud of in terms of legacy and having footballing hero’s.

I don't think that's unfair at all, although Liverpool's midfield is a bit of a mess and I can quite comfortably see him being Henderson's successor. Similarly think he'd be a very strong upgrade on Longstaff at Newcastle. I've never been JWP's biggest fan but I do think he's come on a lot these past two seasons and could be part of a much better team.

[Micky]

Personally I hope he does go, he deserves a whole lot better than us.  He's done as much as he can here, and doesn't deserve to be playing in the championship.   I really can't see us being back in the top flight for many years now so I hope he doesn't 'stay with us for one season' to get us up - never gonna happen.   All of that said I can't see him at a top 6 club, as we know he plays every minute of every game, but he would have to spend a lot of time on the bench at a top club.   Unfortunately I see him at Villa, West ham or Everton even, a mid table type club.  Whatever happens, I wish him well, this clusterfuck is not his making. 

[beatlesaint]

He will go, SR will be relying on the money from him, Lavia and KWP to build a team to get out of the Championship.

[ally_uk]

Why would he stay st Saints if we go down? Get in the real world 🌎 

Double ya wages top 6 club off he goes.... 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, ally_uk said:

Why would he stay st Saints if we go down? Get in the real world 🌎 

Double ya wages top 6 club off he goes.... 

He will do neither. Most likely it’ll be a West Ham, Leicester, Villa or Everton level club with possibly a moderate pay rise.

[SNSUN]

Heart wants him to stay for the Promotion push, head says he’s gone, and for much less money than we’d have got last summer. He’s still a £40-50 million player to the right team, he’s fit, rarely misses a game, versatile, in his prime and is good for some goals. Newcastle would be perfect for him…

 

…however he seems very much a local loving lad, and I doubt he’d want to uproot that far. Brighton? Probably couldn’t afford him, so really it’d be a London club. I hate to say it but Spurs seem a likely candidate.

 

Keeping him would be huge though, especially in a season where we’d most likely lose Lavia too. I’d love to see him wind up some Championship bods.

[bangkoksaint]

1 hour ago, Toussaint said:

Agree with everything apart from the bold bit, he has got us our last 6 points. He may have lost some form earlier in the season, but his life was made very difficult under Ralph's failed loony ball system, ironically he was better under NJ. His goals also kept us up last season.

If he leaves, I'm sure he will, he will go with my blessing. We are lucky to have kept him this long.

Completely agree and when he goes I think he’ll do it in the ‘right’ way. FWIW my comment about the charade wasn’t aimed at him but at the team as a whole. Without his endeavours and effort we may well not have any wins to our name. It must be incredibly disheartening for him.

[Pamplemousse]

I can't see a big club wanting him - an obvious long-term midfielder would be Declan Rice. Liverpool should be all in for him IMO.

 

If we sold him to a team not in Europe I'd be annoyed.

[HarvSFC]

I reckon he'll go to cement his record above Beckham's and become the best Premier League free kick taker of all time. Would be some legacy and need someone extraordinary to take the record if he doesn't waste a year in the Championship. Surprised he's been here for this long to be honest and was surprised he signed the new contract a couple of summers ago. I thought it was a statement of intent, but we've gone backwards massively for a player with his unique ability, which is world class level.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

If he takes the Beckham record between now and the end of the season, and we go down, does he stay? I could possibly see this happening. Realistically, he's not getting a start for England, best would be a squad member and there are others ahead of him in that respect. Am sure the usual suspects would be linked with him, if he goes I would expect it to be somewhere like Leicester, Villa or West Ham. He's not getting a move to the top 6 clubs.

 

[Dusic]

Wonder if we would consider loaning him out for a year?

He is on a long contract so his value won't drop much in that time, especially if he stays in the PL.

If we go straight back up he comes back and if not then he can go permanently.

IMO if someone like Spurs or Chelsea wanted him there is no real need for them to wait til we are relegated, they would have moved sooner.

I could see him at Brighton, especially if they get into Europe. Will likely lose Caicedo and MacAllister this summer so cash no issue.

[Lord Duckhunter]

50 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

 

 

If we sold him to a team not in Europe I'd be annoyed.

That’ll make him think twice. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

I think he’ll stick around regardless. Just feel very confident about that.

[skintsaint]

Can we afford his wages in the lower leagues...probably not unless he has a clause with a wage reduction in his cone-tract.

[Jonnyboy]

13 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’ll make him think twice. 

You'll be glad to see the back of him of course. 

[S-Clarke]

I can't see any scenario in which he stays if we go down. The guy is on 100k p/w for starters, he's the player with the highest sale value we have - we're going to need that income to sort ourselves out for the Championship, so I think JWP will see it as a way to repay us by enabling us to get a decent $$$ for him.

There is no way this guy plays in the NPC. He could rock up at any of the top 10 clubs.

It feels like the right time for a clean break and a fresh look at the on-field captaincy as well. Don't get me wrong, JWP has been amazing for us over the last few years, one of our only shining lights really, but his on field leadership will always leave me wanting more. Never seeing any galvanising from him when things go bad.

Edited 28 February, 2023 by S-Clarke

[The Cat]

No way he stays. Someone will offer a decent wedge to us and him and he'll be off.

Will be weird watching us play without him as he's been almost ever present in the recent past and played in a huge percentage of games since we got promoted back to the top flight.

[CB Fry]

I think the people looking at the money in this scenario will be SR more than JWP.

Even if JWP was minded to stay for one season to help us back up, he's too much of a valuable asset to hold on to once some decent bids come in.

I dont think JWP will be forced out but once (say) Tottenham come in with fifty mil or whatever, SR will take it and JWP will take on the challenge.

[FarehamSaintJames]

4 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I think the people looking at the money in this scenario will be SR more than JWP.

Even if JWP was minded to stay for one season to help us back up, he's too much of a valuable asset to hold on to once some decent bids come in.

I dont think JWP will be forced out but once (say) Tottenham come in with fifty mil or whatever, SR will take it and JWP will take on the challenge.

This. He won't actively try to leave but SR being SR, a business (shrewd businessman, allegedly) will take whatever money they can get.

I don't think he will leave though, like I say, just a feeling.

There's a lot of deadwood around the club that will free up wages, I mean I imagine Armstrong, Elyounoussi etc are on a shit ton of money. I imagine they'll try and clear those players first. Those with expiring contracts, those with a year left, and those that are just squad players and will never be more than that (James Bree).