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Saints vs Spurs - Match Thread


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Would have been worse than Leicester last season if Spurs had turned up for the first half.

Tactically awful from Ralph, not for the first time. 

Also how many months ago did we know Hjojberg was leaving? Pathetic that no replacement has been signed.

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Posted in other area but from my point of view I think the high line is the next step of our evolution of our system which unfortunately we don't have the personal for or have not had enough preparation time with the  existing players for them to understand hence looking like a shower of shit defensively.

I dont know if Che is just unlucky in that he's hitting shots that normally dont get saved but he feels so close to turning the corner but his build up play has been great.

In 1 month I think we will look very different playing this system, Salisu will be a starting CB and hopefully we have a pressing midfielder and another option to come into the team.

Thought Djenpo looked good, shoud stay in the team.

Also has Steve got paid by the club to make it harder to log in after a bad game :lol:

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Playing the defence so far forward might work against Burnley where they have no quick strikers but against anyone with a fast forward it's suicidal. 

We were the better team until their 3rd goal and should have been 2 up at half time but then fell apart once Mourinho worked out that chipping the ball over a static defence put them 1v1 in 40 yards of space. 

I understand that the high line contributes to better attacking play but we'd need to score 7 to have any chance of winning most games with such slow CB's. 

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34 minutes ago, UpweySaint said:

Agree Ralph's got this wrong but blame all around. Our bench is such a sad reflection of where we currently are. This is largely the same squad that have been struggling for 3+ seasons.

 

 

Exactly this. There has been little change in terms of overall quality, and our bench is bereft of any meaningful ways to positively change a game.

What a tired and weak performance. Our defence is limited, is centrally poor at reading the game and has very little pace, so why highlight that by playing a high line?

I very much doubt there will be enough investment to improve our midfield spine and the way in which we attack opponents, so Hassenhuttl will have to somehow pull something off to get our players to perform at a higher level as a team.... What a shambles.

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3 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

We fell apart when Romeu went off by the way..

All that shows is that Smallbone isn't really ready.

Romeu certainly cannot play a full on high press. It's a position we need to fix otherwise we will have some serious problems.

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The manager has some questions to answer. Did he tell the back 4 to play a high line no matter what, or did he tell them to drop when there was no pressure on the ball. I imagine from the lack of bolockings & maybe even substitutations, they were carrying out his instructions. If so, he needs to take a long hard look at himself. You don’t need to be a tactical genius to see that it was killing us.

 

Elsewhere, finishing was awful, really cost us. But the turning point was their first goal, they were on the rack and showing signs of losing the plot. Ward-Prowse should have chopped the bloke down & take the yellow. Shocking soft arsed choir boy attempt to win the ball, that summed his whole game up. The majority of the forum piss themselves talking about Hojberg, but Prowse is no better. Him & Romeou aren’t good enough. 
 

The 2 wide men & Ings played well and the 2 full backs were ok, Adams did ok, until it came to doing his fucking job. The central 4 (centre halves & central midfield) the goal keeper, Adams’ finishing and The manager were pathetic today. That’s what cost us. 

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

All that shows is that Smallbone isn't really ready.

Romeu certainly cannot play a full on high press. It's a position we need to fix otherwise we will have some serious problems.

Romeu was booked in the first few minutes and I’m sure that had an effect on his game.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The manager has some questions to answer. Did he tell the back 4 to play a high line no matter what, or did he tell them to drop when there was no pressure on the ball. I imagine from the lack of bolockings & maybe even substitutations, they were carrying out his instructions. If so, he needs to take a long hard look at himself. You don’t need to be a tactical genius to see that it was killing us.

 

Elsewhere, finishing was awful, really cost us. But the turning point was their first goal, they were on the rack and showing signs of losing the plot. Ward-Prowse should have chopped the bloke down & take the yellow. Shocking soft arsed choir boy attempt to win the ball, that summed his whole game up. The majority of the forum piss themselves talking about Hojberg, but Prowse is no better. Him & Romeou aren’t good enough. 
 

The 2 wide men & Ings played well and the 2 full backs were ok, Adams did ok, until it came to doing his fucking job. The central 4, the goal keeper, Adams’ finishing and The manager were pathetic today. That’s what cost us. 

So that's the question I wanted an answer to as well, so waited for Ralph's interview just now.

He described the defending as "stupid" so I guess that means he is absolving himself of responsibility for that. So he suggests it's the players that are going for this high line. Whoever decided to have the defenders group in the center circle and have a foot race with Son and co, please step forward and prepare for criticism. It was suicidal.

It's not about getting more players in, or better players in, it's about tactics. We're not good enough for "we can score more than you can, just see". Defenders, you need to defend. And Macca, stay in goal. We don't need a sweeper keeper.

40 minutes of being the better team was undone by 50 minutes of stupid defending

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Ralfs comments were telling - he put the blame firmly onto not pressing the ball rather than the high line. I thought we looked much better going fwd which is a positive - Ings looked sharp, Adams good link up but poor shooting, Djenepo and Armstrong much better than Smallbone and Redmond last week .

We have big big issues with centre mid and defence. People slagging off Romeu and JWP but they are leagues ahead of anyone else we have, we are clearly not going to find a player better than those two with our budget and scouting system - just hope we can find someone as good to put pressure on them. 
Let’s be honest - Salisu isn’t going to be some kind of instant VVD - I mean does anyone actually know if he is quick ?. Whilst our two bog standard cbs are slow, you’ve got the snail like Vestergaard waiting in the wings so I’m hoping so.

Don’t think any of our gk are good enough for this system either

its a real mess, think we need to abandon this high line system and until we do we’re going to concede a lot

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Ridiculous game. It reminded me of the reverse of that villa game when we beat them 6-1, they had a high line and we just knocked balls in behind their two slow centre backs. Incredibly naive defending, the defence like statues, McCarthy awful, only made one save in the match and even then it went onto the post only for it to drop to Kane. Defence opened up time and again. We actually looked good going forward, but defensively we are a joke. Awful tactic with players obviously not good enough and suited to play that high line. 

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The manager hasn’t been backed (again), so much like last season he has to once again adjust to the strengths of the squad, rather than instilling his own tactic. Today felt like the Leicester match, in that the defence gave up once the third had gone in and Spurs were then just carving us open. No excuses, as this is an out of form Tottenham team, who aren’t known for playing exciting football and were put through it on Thursday evening in Bulgaria.
 

Semmens will say he’s waiting until the end of the window, so that we can get a good deal. This isn’t and shouldn’t be how football clubs work. We’ll be a handful of games into the league season when the window closes. We probably won’t see the new players until November. Clubs identify their targets and go out and get them. Liverpool got Van Dijk before the January window had opened. Newly promoted West Brom, Leeds and Fulham didn’t sit on Diangana, Rodrigo, or Reed, thinking they’ll be cheaper when it gets closer to deadline day. 

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1 minute ago, HarvSFC said:

The manager hasn’t been backed (again), so much like last season he has to once again adjust to the strengths of the squad, rather than instilling his own tactic. Today felt like the Leicester match, in that the defence gave up once the third had gone in and Spurs were then just carving us open. No excuses, as this is an out of form Tottenham team, who aren’t known for playing exciting football and were put through it on Thursday evening in Bulgaria.
 

Semmens will say he’s waiting until the end of the window, so that we can get a good deal. This isn’t and shouldn’t be how football clubs work. We’ll be a handful of games into the league season when the window closes. We probably won’t see the new players until November. Clubs identify their targets and go out and get them. Liverpool got Van Dijk before the January window had opened. Newly promoted West Brom, Leeds and Fulham didn’t sit on Diangana, Rodrigo, or Reed, thinking they’ll be cheaper when it gets closer to deadline day. 

“Ralph is happy with the squad, he said so. Small-bone has shown he can play in defensive midfield so we don’t need to sign anyone there. Plus we are skint and the Fees recieved for Boufal, Hoedt and Carillo were all swallowed up by agents fees and bonus payments.”

saintsweb cheerleaders October 2020

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I don't think it's unreasonable to have expected a new cm signings by now because imo it's costing us points. I think most saints fans are realistic and realise that we won't be making a ton of superstar signings but as a minimum we should have a cm in. 

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5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Ridiculous game. It reminded me of the reverse of that villa game when we beat them 6-1, they had a high line and we just knocked balls in behind their two slow centre backs. Incredibly naive defending, the defence like statues, McCarthy awful, only made one save in the match and even then it went onto the post only for it to drop to Kane. Defence opened up time and again. We actually looked good going forward, but defensively we are a joke. Awful tactic with players obviously not good enough and suited to play that high line. 

Yes I was also thinking of that Villa game. Long and Mane made hay that day like Son did today.

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1 hour ago, Bananaman said:

Loss to Palace, we were awful; midweek, at near full-strength, we were worst; This is embarrassing, could end with 6 or 7.  The sponsor issue, no contact from the club re. the £60 tshirt I've paid for but not received; three CMs sold, none brought in. This club sometimes. Just pisses me off. You can understand why so many kids will just wanna supports these 'big teams' amateur bullshit. 

Couldn't agree more. Why would any player want to join this shower of shit?

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3 minutes ago, Hodgey said:

Ralfs comments were telling - he put the blame firmly onto not pressing the ball rather than the high line. 

That maybe the case, but the centre halves need to manage the game properly and think for themselves. Proper players won’t just accept that, they’ll dig into the midfield, giving them clog till they do their fucking jobs, and they’ll also think for themselves and drop when there’s no pressure on the ball. They’ll also challenge the manager, winners like Roy Keane & VvD wouldn’t have put up with that. What are they doing, just blindly following the managers instructions to the letter, even if it costs us time and time again. I hope senior players got into Ralph afterwards, but I doubt they’ve got the balls. Sums up our lot, bunch of son in laws. 

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Most of us said the high line would kill us against Spurs and suprise, suprise that happened. How on earth can experienced coaches not see that spurs would eventually cotton on to that and send he ball over the top. It's pathetic management, it's clear we don't have the centre backs with pace to do this or a sweeper keeper, so don't PLAY THAT WAY until you have the players. Get a couple of results and then bring in Salissu and start playing that way.

Ralph blamed lack of pressure on the ball, but you cannot do that for 90 mins and you cannot have that high a line with full backs so far up the pitch against Spurs, let alone anyone else in the Premier League. 

This was such a wasted game in my opinion. Spurs were there for the taking and we gave them the match, through our own mistakes. Yes Adams missed chances, but you cannot give goals away like we did today. 

People calling Stephens the "cornish Maldini" last season were mad. He is bang average, as is Bednarek.

I doubt we will get an investment, but a loan signing like Danso last minute. I like Ralph, but it won't be too much longer before he is fed up with lack of investment and the squad depth. The signs are already there and you could sense this with the post match interview. 

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After the first two games, i didn't bother to watch this one. I said we'd get stuffed,  and actuality the score wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.  Somebody on the match thread predicted a 1 - 3 loss and I thought I'd bite your arm off for that. It beats me how so called professional people can't see what is so obviously going wrong,  if we continue to ask players to do things that plainly they are not good enough to do, we are going one way, and one way only.   The longer we persist with this madness, the longer the likes of Danny Ings have to mull over whether playing elsewhere might actually be a good idea. Give me a couple more games like this and I'll pen the Ralph out thread.

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I can see what Ralph is trying to do with the high line, but to try and implement it in a short pre-season is madness. 

 

We really need Salisu to be the business, Stephens and Bednarek really aren’t good enough.

 

Romeu is abysmal, so slow and an accident waiting to happen with the challenges he puts in, the early one on Hojbjerg where he got booked was ridiculous. 

 

If we could afford to we really need a top class goalkeeper as McCarthy is a constant accident waiting to happen. 

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If that was Leeds or Fulham everyone would be saying that they’ll need to wise  up or they’ll be straight back down to the championship, they’d be saying you can’t play like that at this level. Yet we have experience to play at this level. Our manager has had a full season of English football, full back has played for England & won the champions league. OR has been at Barca & Chelsea, Armstrong an international, Ings knows what’s needed in England, Prowse an experienced pro, even our centre half have been a pair for pretty much a whole season. The fact that they can’t seem to see or react to what is blatantly obvious to 95% of the watching public, is quite shocking. 

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I have been a supporter for 54 years now. I still struggle to answer the question - "why is my team just not very clever?"

There have been many exceptions over the years when we have done very well. But when we struggle we just don't seem to be able to string two thoughts together, let alone two passes.

Ralph is a clever guy but this reminds me of last season up to the Leices... game. He changed it then and needs to adapt again. 

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I called it correct in thinking we would get a tonking, although I didn't envisage 2-5 (but then I didn't think we would persist with a suicidal tactic of having such a high line with such limited defenders).  I think Ralph needs to take the blame for that defeat, unless the defence are deliberately keeping too high a line against orders (I don't think that's the case).  When we went 1-0 up the warning signs were already there and there was no need to hold such a high line anyway - we were lucky to go into the break not significantly behind.  ANY EPL team would be able to exploit our defence playing that system.

To make this team tick better, IMO we need a box to box midfielder who is capable of walking straight into the team - Saints don't do business like that.  And even if we did buy a really good CM, who would they replace?  My feeling is Ward-Prowse or Redmond/Djenepo are the likely candidates, assuming Romeu is capable of being the disruptor rather than ball-player. Armstrong is actually a good player if fit, so perhaps he could come central and put new man on the right hand side?  It's not a straight-forward decision in my view how to affect the team in a positive way.  I don't think JWP will be dropped now he's got the Captains band, but he is such a slow/negative player for 95% of his game and it costs us.  Most of all though, we need to drop this high line bollox to stop us being anchored to the foot of the table and cast adrift.

Edited by Saint Fan CaM
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The whole club is s shambles right now, taking the post-lockdown positivity and firmly stamping it down. Chaos over the shirt sponsors, lack of recruitment again (and again blamed on players we can't seem to shift) and sometimes brainless, sometimes turgid on pitch performances. I can't work out whether it's a lack of ambition or complacency over our finish to last season where we clearly over achieved based on the squad that was available to us. Maybe it's both.

Whereas once I was casting an envious eye over the players and resources at the biggest sides, now I'm looking at teams like Brighton and thinking how they've got a decent mix of players, a coach who is effectively enforcing his ideas and an owner who cares and is willing to invest in the team and wishing that was us. Of course there's plenty of time to get ourselves in good shape again but it will take 3 or 4 reasonable additions to the team/squad to give us the depth and quality we're sadly lacking right now. And maybe even to keep our manager from thinking 'stuff this' and walking away.

Edited by Ivan Katalinic's 'tache
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I didn’t watch the game as I mistakenly accepted an invite to play golf this morning - when I realised my error I felt guilty, but after the Brentford game I felt less so. Reading through these pages and listening to Mrs JBS summary (gloating Spurs mate txt me despite setting record and avoiding looking on my  phone) seems like I made the right decision, even if I did lose one ball in the bushes and 2 in the lakes ( as promised in the build up thread).

When I sat down at home, grabbed my iPad first thing to pop up my memories on Facebook and a post showing the league table from this day 6 years ago................Saints were 2nd behind Chelsea!!

I might take a peek at the recording at some point.

 

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1 hour ago, Appy said:

I can see what Ralph is trying to do with the high line, but to try and implement it in a short pre-season is madness. 

 

We really need Salisu to be the business, Stephens and Bednarek really aren’t good enough.

 

Romeu is abysmal, so slow and an accident waiting to happen with the challenges he puts in, the early one on Hojbjerg where he got booked was ridiculous. 

 

If we could afford to we really need a top class goalkeeper as McCarthy is a constant accident waiting to happen. 

That's the thing, we can all see what he's trying to do. It's a very extreme pressing game, but he's trying to make do with sub-standard players for this tactic because he has never been backed.

He's performed miracles with this bunch, in my opinion. Own goals today with the tactics for sure, but it must be frustrating for him when he has a clear idea of what he wants but no tools to actually implement it.

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Like a few others I knew this was coming after the last two games so also went to play golf. My brother watched it tho, and without any hint from me he said, "" the first 44 minutes your lot were unplayable........whats up with that high line though ""..........ermmmm.

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15 minutes ago, Kingsbridge Saint said:

In the end McCarthy faced 8 shots. 7 of them hit the back of the net. Two were disallowed, 1 save. Thats absolutely abysmal.

Disallowed goal one was a cleanly hit volley from 8 yards. Can't remember the second one.

First goal he should have come for but then the shot took a deflection. Otherwise he would have saved it.

Next 3 were all 1v1's with Son having most of our half to himself, not really sure what blame he can have for those. On a good day he might have saved one but none were his fault.

Didn't see the 5th goal because I'd turned off by then.

He's no world beater but neither is he completely terrible like some make out.

Edited by The Cat
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3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Son scored 4 goals in 20 minutes, with almost identical play each time. Why couldn't the coaches or players work out what was happening ?

Modern players I’m afraid. They take no responsibility to think for themselves. Graham Souness tells a story that he was in the dressing room for his Liverpool debut & Ronnie Moran said “ok son?” He replied that he hadn’t been told the tactics or how to play yet and it was 10 to 3. Ronnies answer “ we paid 250k for you and you’re asking how to fucking play??? “.
 

That’s how it was then, players sorted stuff out themselves. If we’d have got done like that in the 70’s there would have been a sort out in the dressing room, probably involving fisticuffs, now it’ll be high fives and Instagram messages about trying harder. 

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The defending in that second half was every bit as embarassing as the Leicester game. The last goal.....5 players all watching the ball with nobody picking up Son. Then Stephens may aswell not be there when Son runs past him. We've known for a while that defensively we are hopeless, yet right now we still havent addressed it. Yes there is Salisu, but why did we wait so long to sign a CB whos not fit. Still no DM either. It really is a joke and I got accused of being a bed wetter last week too 😂

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Son also missed 2 sitters. Why do Saints players always do this to us. Can’t be coincidence that we start so poorly nearly every season. We just keep digging deeper and deeper until we hit rock bottom. Then we show signs of improvement and the optimism grows only to rinse and repeat the next season. So tiresome.

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How come other teams sign a player and he comes straight in and has an impact. We get players, they take an age to get fit and then we either play them out of position or put them in when the rest of team is in utter disarray and they lose confidence quickly. What a joke of a club.

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Our best performances after restart were defending deep and attacking on the break. When we pressed, we still defended against the through ball or call over the top. Now Ralph suddenly seems hell bent on a suicidally high line that anyone can play through or over, given our lack of pace. I just don't understand why we changed.

Even the very best teams get caught out sometimes with the extreme press, and we're not a very best team. I doubt Ralph can coach our CBs to be skillful and fast enough to have a Plan B when the ball is played behind. 

I'm a mere amateur, but it just seems obvious to me that, with the FBs so high in attack we need the insurance of at least one reasonably mobile CB staying deeper and sweeping. I get the feeling McCarthy has been encouraged to do that job, but again, it's not in his skill set and I'm not convinced it can be coached.

Time for another of your famous reboots, Ralph.

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Opt out to help out. 
 

if a huge percentage of season ticket holders simply Exercise the option to opt out of going to the games in Oct and Nov it will send a strong signal to the club that we’ve had enough, 4th year in.a row being embarrassingly shite at home. Can someone make up some stickers of the two mushes who gave back their season tickets when having to pay for parking (2010 I think)
Getting money refunded for today’s game at least. 
 

the high line has to be stopped in games like this , teams will just let us have the ball and batter us on the break. Ralph seems to have lost it in the last few weeks. It felt like the Leicester game again at times today. Spurs weren’t even that good. 

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25 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

How come other teams sign a player and he comes straight in and has an impact. We get players, they take an age to get fit and then we either play them out of position or put them in when the rest of team is in utter disarray and they lose confidence quickly. What a joke of a club.

Thats exactly it for me also. Im so tired of my club being run like a mickey mouse outfit. Ive had nearly 40 years of it. When I was younger I would become irate. These days I just shrug, feel completely apathetic Ive got more important things in my life to get more upset about ( altho it takes many years of frustration to get to that point). Im not asking or expecting my club to get out and blow billions, but like others have said, we knew our cm was leaving, surely any business/club run properly would think, yeah, we might need to strengthen there. How could something so blindingly obvious to everyone not be seized upon. And it happens time after time after time. Its honestly a bit embarrassing.

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