Saints 0-0 West Ham - Match Thread

[saint1977]

Positives - took 84 minutes for McC to need to do anything and even that was through a Jack special. Bednarek excellent as was Dawson for them. Jack OK but brain fart at the end, KWP very good. Berty better defending but poor offensively. Romeu played well, JWP off form, Ings rusty, Che off the pace. Theo bright but final ball has been better recently, 

WBA would swap it. Have a feeling there might a 2 week circuit-breaker coming up.

[saint77]

5 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Well, in the past we'd have lost that. Take the positives.

Yep exactly,to many on here forget how far we’ve come 

[SKD]

As per the start of the season, still missing some creativity in the middle or 10’s. Walcott just doesn’t cut it for me, unless played as a striker. 
 

missed vestergaard again tonight and his ability to build a counter from the back, stephens doing his best to fuck it up again. He just doesn’t have the concentration to play at this level. 
 

We’ve been sussed out and when plan A doesn’t work we get a bit stuck for ideas, probably because they’re not actually that good at football and we rely on a few to get us out of a hole. 
 

top 10 looking unlikely if we carry on in this form. 

[CWD]

And there was me hoping that self-isolation over Christmas would be made less dull by Saints games.

Patient play is all well and good but we need to have another gear we can move into.

[Saint_clark]

Just frustrating that we would be 2nd now winning these two very winnable games. 

[danjosaint]

2 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Another clean sheet for Jack Stephens. Thought he wasnt PL standard

Apart from he had f##k all knowledge where benrahma was when he pretty much put it on a plate for him

[northam soul]

There just doesn’t seem an urgency to try and win the game.

West Ham were getting everyone behind the ball and all we could come up with was pass back across the halfway line.

There needs to be a different approach in circumstances like that.

[saint lard]

Devoid of ideas,so pedestrian...looks like we don’t have the desire or know how to break a side down.

so boring to watch...it could be Puel all over again  

once again we look to just settle for a draw from about 75mins  

our passing and final ball is terrible  

Thank goodness they didn’t play their strongest 11 from the start  

we look stale and unimaginative and so bloody ponderous  

its a relief we’ve got some points on the board already...because we are only going one way in this table on the recent performances  

 

[sydney_saint]

After the man city game I felt really proud. Despite defeat, I loved that we played our football courageously against a side that is hugely more expensive. 

The last two performances in contrast have been  utterly cowardly. Content to sit out a draw with little urgency or courage. At this point of the season, a point does very little. We ain't going down so the next best thing is to aim for Europe. To do that we need to win a lot of games. If we had gone more attacking we may have beaten Fulham but on flipside lost today. We get more points. I want us to be braver and really go for the win, but most importantly play football to be proud of. Maybe we need some tactical adjustments to do this, or different players. The one thing I know solves neither is throwing fucking Long on the pitch. 

One side point, I do find it odd those blaming our left back for our blunt attack. He snuffed out their best chances, but sure if we had a better left back we would have won 3-0 easy... 

 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

 back to being a mid table side. 

We always were. Across a season this squad rates between 7th to 12th. Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, and probably Everton are better sides than Saints and will finish above us. We are in the mix for the next 5 or 6 places. We may do better, we may do worse, but this is our level, currently.

[DT]

Imagine if we had Antonio. Have always felt we need a big bully up front. Che is strong but Antonio is something else. Definitely need to get a striker in on loan of Shame is the answer...

[SKD]

5 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Another clean sheet for Jack Stephens. Thought he wasnt PL standard

Probably because Haller is about as effective as Shane long and when he actually had to defend he pretty much gifted them a goal, if it hadn’t been for a top save. 

[Sarnia Cherie]

1 minute ago, danjosaint said:

Apart from he had f##k all knowledge where benrahma was when he pretty much put it on a plate for him

Yes, Stephens nearly mucked it up for us. 

[Teddeer]

We have gone from being positive, vibrant and entertaining to being negative,  sluggish and boring to watch. Gone is the side that harries and pressed to win the ball high up the pitch to be replaced by a side whose first thought is to play the ball back towards their own goal and move at walking pace as though that is going to cause the opposition any problems. That was about as turgid as it gets. No real positives other than the fact that Antonio didn't score the almost inevitable late winner. Back to the drawing board Ralph because that was nowhere near good enough.

[DT]

Perhaps we can let them off a bit given how many games have come in quick succession. Fatigue is showing in a pretty thin squad. 

[bpsaint]

4 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Another clean sheet for Jack Stephens. Thought he wasnt PL standard

Did you miss the bit where he fucked up and nearly lost us the game?

[Jonnyboy]

1 minute ago, SKD said:

Probably because Haller is about as effective as Shane long and when he actually had to defend he pretty much gifted them a goal, if it hadn’t been for a top save. 

Haller already has 7 goals this season alone. 

[Nordic Saint]

Just now, woodsaint1 said:

Another clean sheet for Jack Stephens. Thought he wasnt PL standard

Stephens was our best player tonight. His incisive forward passes were as good as Vestergaard's have been lately. In fact, he was just about our only player consistently passing the ball forward, trying to set up attacks.

I think we are getting our tactics wrong. We seem to be far too focused on retaining possession and forgetting that we need to shoot in order to score goals. Much of the game time is wasted passing the ball sideways and backwards in our own half, often with little triangles involving McCarthy. It's as if we're playing for a scoreless draw.  It was very similar to when we played the ten men of Arsenal: a lot of sideways passes with everyone seemingly afraid to shoot in case the ball hits a defender. They forget that a very great number of goals are scored from deflections.

[Mr X]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

How ? We began with 25 and finished with 26.

I meant in terms of winning at home, if your aimng for three points (which you should be at home) that's two points lost ( & yes you could argue we never had them to begin with) 

[CanadaSaint]

I said after the Arsenal game that we’re too in love with our own style. I really like how we play, but that’s three straight winnable games – Arsenal, Fulham and West Ham – where we’ve opted to pass it around and keep recycling in the late stages rather than go for the three points. Even when Bertrand finally started to push up, after Djenepo thankfully left, we turned back and left him up there waiting.

We need to sort out the left side because a Theo/KWP-type partnership over there would transform us. The answer is not Djenepo.

[Harry_SFC]

Looks like we've gone back to a game plan where by we're looking to draw games rather than win them. Disappointing considering Fulham and West Ham are poor sides who concede goals.

[gammon cheeks]

Looking a bit dull and predictable ..........High tempo seems to have vanished into thin air!

[DJ_TOAST]

3 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

Stephens was our best player tonight. His incisive forward passes were as good as Vestergaard's have been lately. In fact, he was just about our only player consistently passing the ball forward, trying to set up attacks.

I think we are getting our tactics wrong. We seem to be far too focused on retaining possession and forgetting that we need to shoot in order to score goals. Much of the game time is wasted passing the ball sideways and backwards in our own half, often with little triangles involving McCarthy. It's as if we're playing for a scoreless draw.  It was very similar to when we played the ten men of Arsenal: a lot of sideways passes with everyone seemingly afraid to shoot in case the ball hits a defender. They forget that a very great number of goals are scored from deflections.

um Stephens almost gave a goal away 

[waylander]

We lost this fixture last season....improvement

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, Nordic Saint said:

Stephens was our best player tonight. His incisive forward passes were as good as Vestergaard's have been lately. In fact, he was just about our only player consistently passing the ball forward, trying to set up attacks.

 

He knocked some great balls, which would have had people wetting  themselves had Vesty played them. Made an error towards the end, which people will jump all over,  as it’s him. The problem tonight wasn’t Jack Stephens, it was the midfield being safe and one paced, Bertrand, Adams  & Ings being poor and Djenopo being hopeless. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

I meant in terms of winning at home, if your aimng for three points (which you should be at home) that's two points lost ( & yes you could argue we never had them to begin with) 

It's just one of those phrases that annoys me, along with 'losing points from a winning position. You start the game with a certain number of points; if you lose you have the same number, if you draw you gain 1, if you win you gain 3. The only time you actually have posession of the points is at the final whistle.

Edited 29 December, 2020 by badgerx16

[Manuel]

W Ham defended well in fairness...

[sydney_saint]

2 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

Stephens was our best player tonight. His incisive forward passes were as good as Vestergaard's have been lately. In fact, he was just about our only player consistently passing the ball forward, trying to set up attacks.

I think we are getting our tactics wrong. We seem to be far too focused on retaining possession and forgetting that we need to shoot in order to score goals. Much of the game time is wasted passing the ball sideways and backwards in our own half, often with little triangles involving McCarthy. It's as if we're playing for a scoreless draw.  It was very similar to when we played the ten men of Arsenal: a lot of sideways passes with everyone seemingly afraid to shoot in case the ball hits a defender. They forget that a very great number of goals are scored from deflections.

I think we haven't adjusted to the fact that other teams have caught on to why we pass it round the back. We passed it round, waited for opposition to move forward and then attacked the space. Now teams will hold back and make sure there is no space. We need something new. Personally I would like to try and beat then on the outside more often. Even KWP often runs inverted or cuts in. Everything is too narrow.  Djenepo is the only one who gets down the outside, and it's only a couple of times a game.

Nothing wrong with been found out, but the sooner we accept our attacking play has then the sooner we can make adjustments 

[bangkoksaint]

We’ve been worked out. End of

[whelk]

Will take another nil nil next game them it must stop

[Convict Colony]

I get a sense of everyone in the front 4 trying too hard to make something happen and nothing coming off.

Defense was good and Jack played the QB role (side note why doesn't bednerak every switch play to the other side?).

Thought JWP look urgent to move it forward, over complicated everything in final 3rd and I think west ham sitting deeper in the first half blunted our opportunities to spring an attack

[Sarnia Cherie]

2 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

After the man city game I felt really proud. Despite defeat, I loved that we played our football courageously against a side that is hugely more expensive. 

The last two performances in contrast have been  utterly cowardly. Content to sit out a draw with little urgency or courage. At this point of the season, a point does very little. We ain't going down so the next best thing is to aim for Europe. To do that we need to win a lot of games. If we had gone more attacking we may have beaten Fulham but on flipside lost today. We get more points. I want us to be braver and really go for the win, but most importantly play football to be proud of. Maybe we need some tactical adjustments to do this, or different players. The one thing I know solves neither is throwing fucking Long on the pitch. 

One side point, I do find it odd those blaming our left back for our blunt attack. He snuffed out their best chances, but sure if we had a better left back we would have won 3-0 easy... 

 

We need a big confident striker and quickly. One that isn't going to be intimidated. Adams doesn't have that quality. As for Long, he contributes nothing productive. It is embarrassing to hear the commentators trotting out how many hours it has been since Long, who is supposed to be a striker, scored a goal. All this tippy-tappy between McCarthy and the defenders at 0-0 with 5 minutes to go gets us nowhere either. 

[Roo1976]

5 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

After the man city game I felt really proud. Despite defeat, I loved that we played our football courageously against a side that is hugely more expensive. 

The last two performances in contrast have been  utterly cowardly. Content to sit out a draw with little urgency or courage. At this point of the season, a point does very little. We ain't going down so the next best thing is to aim for Europe. To do that we need to win a lot of games. If we had gone more attacking we may have beaten Fulham but on flipside lost today. We get more points. I want us to be braver and really go for the win, but most importantly play football to be proud of. Maybe we need some tactical adjustments to do this, or different players. The one thing I know solves neither is throwing fucking Long on the pitch. 

One side point, I do find it odd those blaming our left back for our blunt attack. He snuffed out their best chances, but sure if we had a better left back we would have won 3-0 easy... 

 

Bertrand slowed our game to a walking pace far too often again tonight.Almost like he doesn't trust Djenepo infront of him to be more decisive . That said Djenepo seems clueless and always looks like he'll get a booking at some stage through due care and control. Why Long again................really, i think we've been unlucky with offside calls in tight games recently but were lacking ideas again playing TOO SLOW easy to get a shape against us once more ,but we didnt loose.

[East Kent Saint]

Even Liverpool struggled to create chances or get shots on target against WBA who defended all match .

[Yozzman]

20 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

Another clean sheet for Jack Stephens. Thought he wasnt PL standard

His pass for the Benrahma chance was diabolical. 

[Sarnia Cherie]

Liverpool next. Oh, goody!!!

[trousers]

Please can someone else start the Liverpool build up thread? I'm not convinced myself starting the last two threads and the games ending 0-0 isn't a mere coincidence... (Actually, maybe I ought to start it given we'd probably be happy with a 0-0 against the bindippers...?)

Edited 29 December, 2020 by trousers

[Micky]

Complete lack of urgency all over the field.  Instead of playing to win, we play not to lose.   We all know that Shane long will not score, therefore we used to rely on his pace to win lost causes, run in behind and make space for others.  Unfortunately he does none of this now, so contributes zilch.  A loss against the dippers will probably see us in and around our rightful league position. 

[Chris cooper]

So frustrated with that ! Look so pedestrian and look like a side lacking ideas how to break a side down .. our right side has ideas and energy in kwp and Walcott ..but our left side now needs to be addressed.. Bertie is a great defender but going forward now he struggles to get up and down ..djenepo is becoming a liability.. no football brain 🧠 and booked again giving away dangerous set pieces to a West Ham side that thrive on them .. ings lacks sharpness wayward passes tonight and che looks out of sorts so maybe top ten is slipping far away for us ..our bench is a joke we need new personnel January.

[Harry_SFC]

Bertrand is pretty average these days, isn't he? Our left hand side looks so blunt compared to the right. 

[Saint86]

West Ham are a good side. They're well coached, have good players, and have been able to make decent big money signings (in Bowen and Benrahma) that would get into our starting 11. Contrast against this, we've got a threadbare squad with about 14players suitable for first team prem football. This is our bad run of form.... narrow defeats to United and City, and draws vs rapidly improving arsenal and fulham, and a strong West Ham.

We'll come through this run and pick up the other side, and despite being on a bad run, other teams aren't pulling clear of us. Relax.

[OttawaSaint]

We waved the white flag when we brought on Long. Would have preferred a rusty Obafemi to Long.

Case in point, he’d been on about 5-10 minutes when we mounted an attack that WHU headed away. The ball then fell for us but Shane was still walking slowly back without a care in the world and ended up getting in the way of the through-ball. That’s simply not good enough. He should be buzzing having just come on but showed no desire at all. 

[Katalinic]

Left side needs an upgrade, becoming more obvious every game.

[Wrensup]

Pedestrian and just knocking it about the halfway line. 
Are teams sitting back/deep, and we can’t break them down now? 
or has fatigue set in or something? 

[VectisSaint]

32 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

Stephens was our best player tonight. His incisive forward passes were as good as Vestergaard's have been lately. In fact, he was just about our only player consistently passing the ball forward, trying to set up attacks.

Pretty sure Clin'on Morris'n was going to make him MOM until he was embarrassed making up for Bertie's mistake right at the end. No-one played well, but Stephens was easily our best player (hmm maybe Romeu and KWP were just behind in retrospect. Played a lot of balls that if Jannik had played them everyone would have been drooling. The ball he played through for Walcott early in the first half was an absolute peach, shame Theo could not deal with it. Theo worked hard again, but his touch keeps letting him down (as it has throughout his career to be fair).

[SaveloyMush]

33 minutes ago, bangkoksaint said:

We’ve been worked out. End of

Indeed. Football by numbers.

[The Cat]

Can't say I agree with a lot of the above comments. It wasn't the most entertaining game, however it's a decent point against a team who have a much better squad than we do.

Not sure why people are getting on Stephens back, he had a good game apart from one poor decision. 

Yes we all want to see exciting high press football, but is that possible with a small squad and loads of games in a short period? You also have to factor in West Ham's performance, because apart from the odd period when they were on the front foot they largely sat back with a load of players behind the ball. 

[Avenue_Saint]

We weren’t just drawing blanks in attack again today. We were bad in defence too. 
 

Stephens for all his flashy pings forward, was a liability in the 6 yard box again. I watched him closely and on 2 or 3 occasions like Fulham, the opposition had too much freedom in the box.

Against better opposition, we would’ve been punished today.

Need Salisu to be available ASAP or get Vesty back and fit

 

[LuckyNumber7]

Credit to West Ham who made it very difficult for us and they looked the more likely to score towards the end.

Again we looked slow and bereft of ideas, our tiny squad is costing us now as after the first eleven we have very few options to come in and do a good job. Just compare our bench to West Ham's. Really need to freshen things up with a couple of new additions in the transfer window, the fact Long is still our backup striker tells you all you need to know.

We've had a fantastic year but you can't afford to stand still in this league and we are looking a bit stale right now.

[StrangelyBrown]

I think we've again been undone by not being able to break down an unadventurous team again.

Ralph has been far too slow to try and change things up and seems too content to try and nick a spawny goal to win these sort of games.

I thought defensively we were pretty good. Unfortunately we seem to have lost that bit of zip with the ball that we had earlier in the season and I can't help but feel that we've been somewhat found out.

Djenepo doesn't seem to be on the same wavelength as Bertrand and Ings hasn't hit the form we would expect from him, but the service is awful at the moment. Adams had an off day but hardly surprising given he was booted in the head.